[Dixielandjazz] Re: New Orleans rhythm

[Butch Thompson]

On 8/25/03 2:00 PM, "dixielandjazz-request at ml.islandnet.com"
<dixielandjazz-request at ml.islandnet.com> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>  1. "Verve Remixed" album (david richoux)
>  2. Re: "Verve Remixed" album (Bill Haesler)
>  3. St Louis Blues (was 1st Jazz recording?) (Anton Crouch)
>  4. Re: St Louis Blues (was 1st Jazz recording?)
>  5. Re: Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 8, Issue 36 (Stephen Barbone)
>  6. Re: Busking >> Old Time Busking
>  7. Re: Re: Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 8, Issue 36
>  8. swing, or not... (James Kashishian)
>  9. Re: Busking >> Old Time Busking
> 10. Re: swing, or not...
> 11. C. Sayer (James Kashishian)
> 12. Return of the dreaded "What is Jazz" thread (Edgerton, Paul A)
> 13. Re: Busking >> Old Time Busking
> 14. Re: Return of the dreaded "What is Jazz" thread (Burt Wilson)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:32:47 -0700
> From: david richoux <tubaman at batnet.com>
> To: dixie <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] "Verve Remixed" album
> Message-ID: <E34F55EB-D682-11D7-9E39-000A278D041C at batnet.com>
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> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I was driving home from a gig at the California State Fair last night
> and as I tuned my car radio I found the Sacramento public radio jazz
> station KXJZ - the program was called "Acid Jazz" (and it was not
> anything at all like "Smooth Jazz" - more like what modern groups such
> as "Soul Live" are doing - a driving yet danceable modern bass and drum
> beat groove and interesting instrumental solos, usually with a Hammond
> B-3 organ in there somewhere.)
> 
> Anyway, the DJ played a track from a recent album called
> "Verve//Remixed" and it featured a vocal by Dinah Washington that was
> taken from her recording of "Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby" and
> mixed into this sort of groove thing. I didn't know exactly what to
> think about this - it was sort of OK, I guess, but I am sure the Mouldy
> Figs will be rolling their eyes and ears...
> 
> you can check out this trendy thing at
> http://www.vervemusicgroup.com/artist.aspx?aid=4558 - Dinah is not the
> only jazz master that has been "re-groovifyed"
> 
> also, for KXJZ: http://www.csus.edu/npr/programmenu.html#
> 
> Dave Richoux
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:29:56 +1000
> From: Bill Haesler <bhaesler at nsw.bigpond.net.au>
> To: david richoux <tubaman at batnet.com>
> Cc: dixieland jazz mail list <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Re: "Verve Remixed" album
> Message-ID: <0HK500ITBOCX0U at mta03bw.email.bigpond.com>
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> 
> Dear Dave,
> Regarding: Dinah Washington ..... "Is You Is or Is You Ain't My
> Baby"......mixed
> into this sort of groove thing........ but I am sure the Mouldy Figs will be
> rolling their eyes and ears...<
> I doubt it.
> We mouldy figs do not recognise Dinah Washington.
> 8>)
> Kind regards,
> Bill.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:14:19 +1000
> From: Anton Crouch <a.crouch at unsw.edu.au>
> To: "Rob McCallum" <rakmccallum at hotmail.com>
> Cc: DJML <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] St Louis Blues (was 1st Jazz recording?)
> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20030825151419.00696e2c at pop3.unsw.edu.au>
> In-Reply-To: <Law15-DAV30FBJFOAnT00029c52 at hotmail.com>
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> 
> 
> Hello Rob
> 
> Early recordings of St Louis Blues are fascinating and a real challenge to
> jazz musicologists. Ciro's and WC Handy's own early recording may be
> "jazzy" but I think they lack that "spark" that we identify with music that
> is unambiguously jazz. It's a difficult subject and once we start
> considering issues such as gestalt we get into a right royal mess.
> 
> The other aspect of St Louis Blues that makes it a real "killer" for jazz
> classification is the "Spanish influence". I hesitate to use Morton's
> phrase, "Spanish tinge", because the habanera rhythm of SLB sounds so
> calculated in the early performances. It's yet another example that shows
> that the composition itself is not necessarily jazz - jazz lies in the
> performance. Having said that, how do we classify the classic Bessie
> Smith/Louis Armstrong/Fred Longshaw performance? Blues? jazz? both?
> 
> All the best
> Anton
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:53:31 -0400
> From: JimDBB at aol.com
> To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] St Louis Blues (was 1st Jazz recording?)
> Message-ID: <4BDBDFDD.3AB8BC3A.0004C514 at aol.com>
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> 
> In a message dated 8/25/2003 1:14:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> a.crouch at unsw.edu.au writes:
> 
>> Early recordings of St Louis Blues are fascinating and a real challenge to
>> jazz musicologists. Ciro's and WC Handy's own early recording may be
>> "jazzy" but I think they lack that "spark" that we identify with music that
>> is unambiguously jazz. It's a difficult subject and once we start
>> considering issues such as gestalt we get into a right
>> royal mess.
> 
> The St. Louis blues was written to be a popular song.  Most songs that are
> used in jazz were written to be pupular songs.
> When a jazz musician plays them they become jazz. It's fairly simple...nothing
> difficult about it at all.
> 
> Jim Beebe
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:33:04 -0400
> From: Stephen Barbone <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
> To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 8, Issue 36
> Message-ID: <3F49755F.6005FAA9 at earthlink.net>
> References: <E19r05u-000Ekk-06 at ml.islandnet.com>
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> 
>> Anton Crouch wrote:
> 
>> Rob McCallum raises an interesting issue with his claim that the Ciro's
>> Coon Club Orchestra London recordings of 1916 are the first jazz
>> recordings. He also opens a can of worms because, if the Ciro's records are
>> jazz, it's open slather all the way back to 1897 to find earlier examples.
>> 
>> First, I agree with me ole mate Bill Haesler that these Ciro's records are
>> not jazz. They are ragtime-influenced banjo performances of popular tunes.
>> They are syncopated, but they don't swing and I can't hear any blues
>> influence.
> 
> Well, maybe jazz, maybe not. Who says jazz has to be blues influenced?
> Certainly not folks like Bix, and other notable "jazz" icons. Or where it it
> written that jazz must swing? Certainly the ODJB "Darktown Strutters Ball"
> (whenever it was recorded) referred to below does not swing, nor do other
> examples of their work. Also consider Stan Kenton et al when discussing swing
> as a necessary element to jazz. Finally, there are those who jazz writers who
> claim that ragtime became jazz primarily when the time was changed to the 4/4
> time of early New Orleans Jazz from the 2/4 time of ragtime. Other than that,
> jazz and ragtime are pretty much identical.
> 
>> Steve Barbone's reference to James R Europe is most interesting. A lot of
>> Europe's early (pre 1917) work dances along very nicely but, to me, it
>> lacks that spark that we call jazz.
> 
> Spark? To my ears Europe's records have plenty of spark. Somewhere in my
> memory banks are examples of jazz writers calling what Europe played jazz, and
> referring to his Carnegie hall Concert circa 1914 or whenever, as the first
> jazz concert at Carnegie. I suspect a dedicated researcher could come up with
> an example or two. Big band, lots of banjos, etc., but who says 92 piece bands
> can't play jazz? Perhaps it is just a bit different from what we prefer to
> call jazz, but jazz never the less?
> 
>> The BIG issue is "what is that spark"? Its absence or presence can be
>> demonstrated by comparing, for example, Europe's March 1919 recording of
>> "Darktown strutters ball" with the ODJB's May 1917 (sorry Steve) version.
>> Another, even clearer, example is the difference between the performances
>> of "High society" by Prince's Band (May 1911) and King Oliver (June 1923).
> 
> I agree, "what is 'Spark'"? Darktown Strutters Ball (recorded Jan or May 1917,
> take your pick ;-) ) as I hear it, is the worst ever example of recorded music
> by the ODJB. IMO, the above examples are differences in style rather than
> "Spark".  Even so, we've discussed before whether or not ODJB arrangements
> were either totally scored or totally memorized. For those who think jazz must
> be improv, there is precious little, if any, of it on those ODJB recordings.
> If one writes out the various takes of the same tunes, one sees clearly that
> they are virtually identical.  Any differences are so very minor, that they
> suggest "mistakes" in the performance rather than improvisation.
> 
> John Phillip Sousa and Alphonse Picou could both, no doubt, play High Society
> with Spark. Yet Sousa's might not be jazz. Perhaps we need a better definition
> of the difference? Could it be that 4/4 New Orleans rhythm?
> 
> Following up on the New Orleans origins of jazz, it seems to me that perhaps
> the New Orleans rhythmic figures as applied to various forms of music was a
> very necessary ingredient to the beginnings of jazz. And as I hear it, the
> beginning was 4/4 New Orleans time as applied to ragtime tunes.
> 
> Cheers,
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:20:11 EDT
> From: BudTuba at aol.com
> To: jazzboard at hotmail.com, Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Busking >> Old Time Busking
> Message-ID: <3d.340d53e3.2c7b913b at aol.com>
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> 
> In a message dated 7/29/03 11:23:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jazzboard at hotmail.com writes:
> 
>> -- it would be virtually impossible for a rock group
>> to play accoustically. But a dixieland band sure as hell could!
>> 
>> 
> 
> I am reminded of that photo of King Oliver's band with Louis Armstrong in
> what looks like a brick-walled alley in a playing pose.  Could that have been
> because busking was a common practise back then?  Many bands had studio shots
> in 
> a playing pose, but why did King Oliver choose the back alley?
> 
> Bud Taylor
> Smugtown Stompers
> Rochester, NY
> Traditional Jazz since 1958
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:09 EDT
> From: TCASHWIGG at aol.com
> To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 8, Issue 36
> Message-ID: <c5.374737a9.2c7b93cd at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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> 
> In a message dated 8/25/03 8:56:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> barbonestreet at earthlink.net writes:
> 
>> And as I hear it, the beginning was 4/4 New Orleans time as applied to
>> ragtime tunes.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Steve
>> 
> 
> Nope, you guys have all missed the mark entirely:
> 
> Jazz was invented by Burger King, (not to be confused  in any way with King
> Oliver),
> "HAVE IT YOUR WAY"
> 
> 
> Jazz is playing any song anyway you want to play it, total musical freedom,
> make it swing or don't make it swing, that is not to say that it is still not
> Jazz to somebody's ears.
> 
> It should not be difficult to understand if we remember that many of us hear
> music differently than others , and some folks listening to exactly the same
> recordings talk about them as if they were two different recordings.
> 
> I have heard guys trying to play Jazz charts that they think are really hip,
> but the sound they produce would not swing on a ROPE, because either the
> charts were stymied by the arranger, or the players just could not put any
> feeling 
> into the music.  Both situations cause awful Jazz, but then again they may be
> the guys who think Jazz just does not have to swing to be Jazz, just boring
> mundane compositions to show of brilliant technique.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Tom (Bad Ear)  Wiggins
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:34:15 +0200
> From: "James Kashishian" <kash at ran.es>
> To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] swing, or not...
> Message-ID: <002801c36b26$bab10b00$02001aac at terra.es>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="Windows-1252"
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> 
> Tom wrote:
>> make it swing or don't make it swing, that is not to say that it is
> still not 
>> Jazz to somebody's ears.
> 
> "It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing"
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:39:31 EDT
> From: TCASHWIGG at aol.com
> To: Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Busking >> Old Time Busking
> Message-ID: <15a.23765e63.2c7b95c3 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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> 
> In a message dated 8/25/03 9:20:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time, BudTuba at aol.com
> writes:
> 
>> 
>> In a message dated 7/29/03 11:23:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> jazzboard at hotmail.com writes:
>> 
>>> -- it would be virtually impossible for a rock group
>>> to play accoustically. But a dixieland band sure as hell could!
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> Not at all folks:
> 
> Some of you have not been listening to Rock Bands for a long time I see.
> 
> Many of them play entire concerts "Unplugged"  which is acoustic, and still
> sell out major arenas.
> 
> Got to change that radio dial once in a while folks to keep up with what's
> happening in the world of music.  Trust me there has been a lot of good music
> written and recorded after 1935, try it you might find something you like
> besides Dixieland.
> 
> There are many kinds of OKOM.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Tom Wiggins
> Saint Gabriel's Celestial Brass Band
> 
> We can play you all the Acoustic Rock you probably would not listen to.
> Ya just have to be musically creative folks, relax and try playing something
> different and adapt it to your own sound.  Experiment you might surprise
> yourself and your audience and even like what you hear.
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:58:52 EDT
> From: TCASHWIGG at aol.com
> To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] swing, or not...
> Message-ID: <ce.3bedd46d.2c7b9a4c at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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> 
> In a message dated 8/25/03 9:36:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kash at ran.es
> writes:
> 
>> 
>> Tom wrote:
>>> make it swing or don't make it swing, that is not to say that it is
>> still not 
>>> Jazz to somebody's ears.
>> 
>> "It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing"
>> 
>> Jim
>> 
>> 
> I forgot to mention it Jim but yes I do subscribe to that theory myself, but
> there are many others who apparently don't and like their music staid and
> boring, they also listen to a lot of Bach I would guess. 8>)     2 each his
> own.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Tom
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:02:33 +0200
> From: "James Kashishian" <kash at ran.es>
> To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] C. Sayer
> Message-ID: <003501c36b2a$b0f43a20$02001aac at terra.es>
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> 
> Ed Ohr tried to hook me up with Cynthia while she is in Madrid.  I can't
> contact you directly, Ed, as you are on AOL & my server has had some
> problems (Spanish Spam!) with AOL, but I wanted to say thank you for
> making the contact.  It will, unfortunately, be the second time we have
> missed each other, as they are not actually playing in Madrid on the W.
> Allen tour, and won't be staying here.  She wrote to me to say she was
> sorry. 
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:15:09 -0500
> From: "Edgerton, Paul A" <paul.edgerton at eds.com>
> To: DJML <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Return of the dreaded "What is Jazz" thread
> Message-ID: <E2455C8B4A4AD21187C700805F31BC231C7B00E0 at USSAM202>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Message: 12
> 
> Jim Beebe wrote:
> "The St. Louis blues was written to be a popular song.  Most songs that are
> used in jazz were written to be pupular songs.
> When a jazz musician plays them they become jazz. It's fairly
> simple...nothing difficult about it at all."
> 
> Leaving aside for now the question of what is a "pupular" song, let's look
> at the proposition that jazz is music played by jazz musicians. Say for the
> moment that's true. Now then, is it jazz when a jazz musicians records a
> film score? What about when he does a commercial soundtrack. How about when
> a bunch of recognized jazz horn players overdub a rock and roll record?
> 
> At moments like this I recall a comment made by trombonist and educator Paul
> Tanner at a roundtable discussion sponsored by the National Association of
> Jazz Educators: "I can't tell you exactly what jazz is, but I'm perfectly
> capable of finding something wrong with any definition you might propose."
> 
> Well okay, I'm working from memory here, and I have probably misrepresented
> Mr. Tanner's actual words, but the idea is fitting. Jazz beauty is in the
> mind of the beholder. I think it's safe to say that Jazz music is played by
> jazz musicians, but it's not very helpful. Do any non-jazz musicians play
> jazz?
> 
> I guess jazz is a lot like smut: you'll recognize it when you see (hear) it.
> 
> If any of you want to fight (that is, argue) with me about this, I'll be
> available at Sweet & Hot. At least I will be when I'm not harassing Dick
> Broadie or Gordon of Northridge. And Jim, I'm not really picking on you --
> but thanks for the convenient springboard.
> 
> Paul Edgerton
> Who, come to think of it, might also be playing with the Fulton Street Jazz
> Band between bouts.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:34:54 -0400
> From: JimDBB at aol.com
> To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Busking >> Old Time Busking
> Message-ID: <4923B649.010D9CFF.0004C514 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 13
> 
> In a message dated 8/25/2003 12:39:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TCASHWIGG
> writes:
> 
>>> jazzboard at hotmail.com writes:
>>> 
>>>> -- it would be virtually impossible for a rock group
>>>> to play accoustically. But a dixieland band sure as hell could!
> 
>> Not at all folks:
>> 
>> Some of you have not been listening to Rock Bands for a long time I see.
>> 
>> Many of them play entire concerts "Unplugged"  which is acoustic, and still
>> sell out major arenas.
>> 
>> Got to change that radio dial once in a while folks to keep up with what's
>> happening in the world of music.  Trust me there has been a lot of good music
>> written and recorded after 1935, try it you might find
>> something you like
>> besides Dixieland.
>> 
>> There are many kinds of OKOM.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Tom Wiggins
> 
> Tom is very right about this.
> 
>  Jim Beebe
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:01:27 -0700
> From: "Burt Wilson" <futurecon at earthlink.net>
> To: "Edgerton, Paul A" <paul.edgerton at eds.com>,
> "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Return of the dreaded "What is Jazz" thread
> Message-ID: <000d01c36b3b$4a7f3900$52751e43 at j4x0s9>
> References: <E2455C8B4A4AD21187C700805F31BC231C7B00E0 at USSAM202>
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Reply-To: Burt Wilson <futurecon at earthlink.net>
> Message: 14
> 
> I'm convinced that jazz is whatever Paul Edgerton says it is. Personally, I
> like jass.
> 
> Burt Wilson
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Edgerton, Paul A" <paul.edgerton at eds.com>
> To: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:15 AM
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Return of the dreaded "What is Jazz" thread
> 
> 
>> Jim Beebe wrote:
>> "The St. Louis blues was written to be a popular song.  Most songs that
> are
>> used in jazz were written to be pupular songs.
>> When a jazz musician plays them they become jazz. It's fairly
>> simple...nothing difficult about it at all."
>> 
>> Leaving aside for now the question of what is a "pupular" song, let's look
>> at the proposition that jazz is music played by jazz musicians. Say for
> the
>> moment that's true. Now then, is it jazz when a jazz musicians records a
>> film score? What about when he does a commercial soundtrack. How about
> when
>> a bunch of recognized jazz horn players overdub a rock and roll record?
>> 
>> At moments like this I recall a comment made by trombonist and educator
> Paul
>> Tanner at a roundtable discussion sponsored by the National Association of
>> Jazz Educators: "I can't tell you exactly what jazz is, but I'm perfectly
>> capable of finding something wrong with any definition you might propose."
>> 
>> Well okay, I'm working from memory here, and I have probably
> misrepresented
>> Mr. Tanner's actual words, but the idea is fitting. Jazz beauty is in the
>> mind of the beholder. I think it's safe to say that Jazz music is played
> by
>> jazz musicians, but it's not very helpful. Do any non-jazz musicians play
>> jazz?
>> 
>> I guess jazz is a lot like smut: you'll recognize it when you see (hear)
> it.
>> 
>> If any of you want to fight (that is, argue) with me about this, I'll be
>> available at Sweet & Hot. At least I will be when I'm not harassing Dick
>> Broadie or Gordon of Northridge. And Jim, I'm not really picking on you --
>> but thanks for the convenient springboard.
>> 
>> Paul Edgerton
>> Who, come to think of it, might also be playing with the Fulton Street
> Jazz
>> Band between bouts.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dixielandjazz mailing list
>> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
>> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> 
> 
> End of Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 8, Issue 37
> ********************************************
> 

When I was younger, I used to get angry with one or two of my aging beatnik
friends who put down New Orleans jazz as "two-beat."  No, I said, you don't
understand: it's four-beat.  What I didn't notice at the time was that much
of the music I loved was, in fact, based on a combination of the two, and
that N. O. bassists and drummers