[Dixielandjazz] Message 1 Chords

[Patrick Cooke]

>>>True, the fifth and the root are often dropped, but NEVER the third.  The
third identifies the chord as major or minor.<<<

      I'm quoting my own message here, because I thought of an instance
where the 3rd is dropped.  It is when the third is suspended, or raised a
half tone.  I guess it's not really dropped, just altered.  It's sometimes
called an 11th.  My Apologies.
      Pat Cooke
            Pat Cooke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Cooke" <patcooke@cox.net>
To: <DWSI@aol.com>; <dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Message 1 Chords


> >>>To take it all one step further, as you add extensions, or dissonance
to
> any "basic" triad, sixth or seventh chord, you very likely will drop some
of
> the intervals inside the chord because they aren't heard or, sometimes
> conflict with, the extension. The fifth, for example, is often dropped,
and
> so is the third. What then happens is you wind up with fewer notes than
you
> might think. A great example is the so-called thirteenth, which is really
> just a displaced sixth, or you could say, vice-versa. You can call it a
> sixth or a thirteenth and not be totally wrong, <<<
>
>       Not so!.....True, the fifth and the root are often dropped, but
NEVER
> the third.  The third identifies the chord as major or minor.  If it's a
> dominant chord, the seventh is always included.
>
>       A major chord may have a major 7th, or a 6th.  It may also have a
9th,
> in which case the root is dropped to keep a 4-note line, and because it's
> less complicated to finger.
>
>       BTW, you say the Gm6 is OK, but the C9 is not.  Both chords are
> fingered exactly the same on a guitar (root omitted on the 9th).
>
>        Frequently the melody note is a ninth, even though the chart says
> it's a seventh chord.  Well, if the ninth is the melody note on a 7th
chord,
> the chord is a ninth.....and it should have been labeled as such.  If the
> melody note is a 6th on that 7th chord, the chord is a 13th.  The melody
> note is always part of the chord.  Guys who print fake books print one
chord
> to every one or two bars.  That doesn't mean you HAVE to play a major
triad
> for the first 8 bars of Small Hotel, as the fake book says.  There are
many
> ways of doing it and keeping the audience awake.
>
>        In a line with 4 voices, it's a better sound if the whole harmonic
> line has 4 voices.  It doesn't hurt to drop a root or a fifth.  Your ear
> will 'hear' them even though they are not articulated.
>
>         The notes of the chord never interfere with the extension, unless
> you try to jam them all into the same octave.
>
>         The 13th is not 'just a displaced 6th'.  The b7 is included for
the
> dominant sound, and the '6th' (13th) is added, but in the next octave so
as
> not to dissonate with the b7.  You can't call a chord a 6th if the seventh
> is included.  This all may sound complicated at first, but if you work
with
> it a while, it gets a lot simpler.  This sounds baffling to a lot of horn
> players, but a guitar or piano player understands it well.
>
>          I recommend anybody who plays any kind of jazz to study guitar or
> keyboard to get a feel for chords.  You don't have to become a virtuoso,
> just get used to playing some chords along with your CDs.  I guarantee
your
> horn playing will very noticeably improve.
>         Pat Cooke
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <DWSI@aol.com>
> To: <dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:16 AM
> Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Message 1 Chords
>
>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 15:07:28 -0400
> > From: Stephen Barbone <barbonestreet@earthlink.net>
> > Reply-To: barbonestreet@earthlink.net
> > Organization: Barbone Street Jazz Band
> > To: Dixieland Jazz Mailing List <dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com>
> > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Chord Question - Charleston, Bar 12
> >
> > Pat Cooke wrote:
> >
> > "Well, a Gm6 is the same chord as C9, or an Em7b5; and you could use a
> > Gm9;
> > but the best chord is really a C13.  (Ask any guitar player!)."
> >
> > Listmates & Pat:
> >
> > Yeah, right on. However, careful Pat, you are treading on an "old"
> > shibboleth that Dixieland does not include those "extensions". So a Gm6
> > with a root like John Farrell suggested is more in keeping with
> > "tradition" than the C9 or C13.
> >
> > C13? Heresy.  ;-) VBG
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Steve Barbone
> >
> > I hope this clearly identifies the subject this time.
> >
> > I'm all the way with Steve on this one. The guys who play those big
> "modern"
> > chords on guitar have a lot more strings to work with and, I suspect,
hate
> > simple chords like triads and sevenths in the first place.
> >
> > To take it all one step further, as you add extensions, or dissonance to
> any
> > "basic" triad, sixth or seventh chord, you very likely will drop some of
> the
> > intervals inside the chord because they aren't heard or, sometimes
> conflict
> > with, the extension. The fifth, for example, is often dropped, and so is
> the
> > third. What then happens is you wind up with fewer notes than you might
> > think. A great example is the so-called thirteenth, which is really just
a
> > displaced sixth, or you could say, vice-versa. You can call it a sixth
or
> a
> > thirteenth and not be totally wrong, although a few purists will want to
> put
> > it in the context of the larger harmonic framework for analysis. Do we
> really
> > need that kind of analysis? I think Dixieland and early Jazz was loved
> > because it was pure, heartfelt, fun and open music. No hiding behind
funny
> > dissonances.
> >
> > All the best to all,
> > Dan (piano fingers) Spink
> >
>
>
>
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