[Dixielandjazz] Ricky Riccardi interviewed, New Book About Armstrong

[Robert Ringwald]

    Date: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:28 pm ((PDT))
Ricky Riccardi: Armstrong Reconsidered
Author of new book on Louis Armstrong's later years talks about his obsession with
the trumpeter's legacy
by Lee Mergner
JazzTimes.com, June 9, 2011
Most jazz authors begin their careers writing pieces for newspapers or magazines
(or even blogs) and then eventually get around to doing a book after several years
in the journalistic trenches. Ricky Riccardi is very much an exception to that rule.
Riccardi studied the life and music of Louis Armstrong in both college and graduate
school and he eventually turned all that research into an engaging book about the
legendary trumpeter's later years, which Riccardi believes have often been overlooked
or even maligned. "What a Wonderful World: The Magic of Louis Armstrong's Later Years"
has just been published by Pantheon Books.
Riccardi spoke with JazzTimes about his unique path to book authorship and about
his passion for the life and music of Louis Armstrong.
Q: What was the first piece you wrote professionally?
A: You could almost say the book. I've been writing about jazz for about a decade
from an amateur level. I started off at a college newspaper in Toms River, New Jersey,
my hometown, at the first college I went to, Ocean County College. I was the editor-in-chief
of the newspaper there. And being the editor-in-chief, I decided to give myself a
jazz column and the very first jazz column I ever wrote was on Louis Armstrong's
later years back in 2000. And it actually won me an award in the Jersey Press Association
collegiate competition award and I thought, "I'm onto something." Besides that and
starting my own blog "The World of Louis Armstrong" --
http://www.dippermouth.blogspot.com/
 -- in 2007, I've been a behind-the-scenes kind of guy.
Q: How did you end up at the Louis Armstrong House as an archivist there?
A: I began in October 2009 as the project archivist. I was hired on a two year grant.
First I had to catalogue Jack Bradley's collection -- the world's foremost private
collector of all things Armstrong. We began acquiring his collection in 2005. It
took one trip a year to Jack's house in Cape Cod over six years to bring everything
to the museum. I was hired in 2009 to process that, catalogue that and also enter
in all the data from all the other collections here into an online software program
called "Path Perfect." This past December we recently launched an online catalogue
of some of our materials from some of our collection. It's still an ongoing process.
That is my day job.
Q: Louis Armstrong has been covered by so many writers already. Why did you decide
to do this book on his later years?
A: The seeds for this book were actually planted the first time I listened to Louis
Armstrong's music. I was 15 years old -- this was 1995. I was a freshman in high
school and saw the movie "The Glenn Miller Story" and when Louis Armstrong came on
and did "Basin Street Blues," I took one look and said, "This guy is fantastic."
I went down to my local library and checked out a Columbia compilation on cassette
back then called, "Sixteen Most Requested Songs" with liner notes by George Avakian.
It was a compilation of Louis Armstrong's 1950's Columbia records -- "Mack the Knife,"
"Satchmo," "Louis Armstrong Plays WC Handy." And later in time when I got to track
14 -- "St. Louis Blues" -- and something in my mind shifted and I thought, "I need
every note this man ever recorded." Naturally I started get the Hot Five and the
Hot Seven recordings but every time I picked up a book or read the liner notes, everyone
seemed to disparage the later years, when he went commercial... that he went show
biz or was an Uncle Tom... and that these early recordings showed the real artist
and the genius. I kept saying, well "No, it's not quite true."
Gary Giddins did a great job planting the seed for that in the '80s and Dan Morgenstern
did an unbelievable job. His liner notes were very influential for me. But early
on, I knew this was story that needed to be told. I was in the honors program at
Ocean County College and I needed to write a research paper to graduate. I ended
up writing 125 pages on Louis Armstrong and his later years. And then I went to Rutgers
for my master's where I ended up studying with Lewis Porter, Henry Martin and John
Howland. I wrote my thesis there -- 350 pages on Louis Armstrong's later years. So
this book is a long time coming. There is a lack of fundamental knowledge about this
period of Armstrong's life.
This [time period] is the most taxing time of his life. It's the period of his greatest
popularity, the period when he's the most misunderstood and some of the previous
biographies, such as James Lincoln Collier's or Laurence Bergreen's books, once they
[the authors] hit the year 1947, they hit the fast forward button and zoom through
the last 25 years of Armstrong's life, all the while just kind of rolling their eyes
and talking about "Hello Dolly" and hitting the same notes: "What a Wonderful World,"
Little Rock and then he died... the end. I knew there was a much deeper story there
and I always wanted to tell it.
Q: A central thesis of the book is that Louis Armstrong was often maligned for his
music and politics. Has the perception of him changed in last few years?
A: It's been changing. Louis died in 1971. He had lost almost his entire black audience
and many young jazz fans all but ignored him. And the books that came out -- the
writings on Louis in the '70s and especially early '80s -- carried on about Louis
as the poor servant of Joe Glaser, smiling all the time while he lost his jazz chops,
and was too commercial minded and all this stuff. Gary Giddins was the first one
to start really start changing people's minds and I don't think it's a coincidence
that Gary was the first person to have access to Louis' private writings and his
private tape recordings. This was before there was a Louis Armstrong Archive. Gary
got to actually go to Louis' house and use that material.
Once the Armstrong Archive opened up in 1994, that's when you start to see the writings
start changing because Louis' own words start telling the story. I really think that
deep down, Louis was aware of his importance and he was aware of his opinions on
things and that's why he wrote so much. He wrote so many manuscripts and he always
kept that reel-to-reel tape recorder going. He always said he was doing it for posterity
and after he died, his wife Lucille said that Louis always told her, "I made these
tapes, be careful with them, don't let anyone take them, watch these tapes, they're
going to be very valuable one day." It's on these tapes where you finally get to
hear Louis' side of the story. Slowly, through the years, these things have been
coming out. Thomas Brothers did a book on Louis Armstrong's private writings, "Louis
Armstrong: In His Own Words," which is essential. Terry Teachout's book ["Pops: A
Life of Louis Armstrong"] was the first one to really use some of the tapes and show
that the offstage Louis. While he was still a very happy man, he was very complex
and he had feelings about racism that were really never before explored. But they're
all on tape and the more that comes out, the more that perceptions seem to be changing.
Q: Although you're a historian and researcher, the book is not written in an academic
tone. Was this a conscious decision in order to make the book and its message more
accessible to a wider audience?
A: Yes, it's definitely tied into the way I write. When I was studying at Rutgers
we did a lot of work with academic journals and stuff like that and that way of writing
always bored me to tears. I always preferred a more conversational style. When all
of these ideas about Louis Armstrong were crowding my brain, I started a blog in
2007 and that blog, with no editor looking over my shoulder, allowed me to be my
own self. To this day when I write the blog, I always try to make it conversational.
I try to make silly jokes and really try to make it more accessible.
I realized that Louis Armstrong is such a major figure. Forty years after he died,
everybody knows who he is. Here at the Louis Armstrong House, we're getting 12,000
visitors a year from all over the world. So I didn't want to write a book just for
the hardcore jazz fan, with lots of transcriptions and that kind of stuff. I thought
there was a story here and that whether you were the world's biggest Armstrong buff
or just knew him from "A Wonderful World," you would find something of interest in
this book.
Q: As an Armstrong scholar, it would seem that you know just about everything about
him. In the course of your research, did you learn anything about Armstrong that
surprised you?
A: Really just the main surprises came from the private tapes -- hearing Louis talk
about his manager Joe Glaser who he really did worship and had such a deep friendship
with. I found this amazing tape where Louis basically threatened to retire unless
Glaser told authorities to allow Louis to smoke marijuana without getting in trouble.
When I found that tape, it just melted my mind because I had been hearing these stories
about Louis and Glaser -- that Louis was subservient and that Glaser cracked the
whip. Then when you listen to the tape and you hear how stern Louis is, you think,
"Wait a minute, it's the other way around: Louis is the one in charge." He knew that
Glaser couldn't survive without him so he was going to make his demands. It's things
like that, stories about Louis encountering racism and even his use of language which
could be very very salty off stage. Listening to tapes really made him come to life
as someone behind the smile on the stage. I talked to folks who knew him including
Dan Morgenstern and Jack Bradley and the musicians who played with him in the All
Stars. But it wasn't until I spent time with the tapes that the surprises really
came flying at me -- one after another. This was a man who was a very very deep,
complex and remarkable man.
Q: Do you see Louis Armstrong as a politically active and aware figure?
A: He definitely was, but he knew that the biggest public impact he could make was
through his music. He really believed in leading by example. He knew that he was
a black man, born poor, in the United States and he knew what he overcame. He knew
that he brought goodwill around the world through his music and when people would
press him about political issues, he tended to downplay it because he didn't want
to alienate one side or the other. But when he saw injustice, that's when he really
blew his top and he couldn't contain it over Little Rock was the major occasion.
But in 1965 with the marches on Selma, Louis was in Denmark and reporters asked him
about it while he was over there. And he talked about how he knows why his reputation
was suffering back then because he wasn't taking part in the marches and that he
was afraid.
Right on the eve of a major tour of the Iron Curtain countries, he gets to these
countries and they are waiting for him to say more about race relations. Here he
is, he's already proved he has his opinions but in press conferences he starts backtracking
-- "Oh, I have fans everywhere, everyone's been very nice to me." But meanwhile,
at the same time, during the same tour, he starts playing "What Did I Do to Be So
Black and Blue" -- a song he hadn't played with any regularity in years. So that's
how you knew he had survived that. He couldn't be as outspoken as some of the younger
musicians were. So he did it through his music. He got his message across and he
brought great jazz to everywhere he went.
Q: Certainly some artists did step up and support the efforts of Dr. Martin Luther
King and other civil rights activists. Harry Belafonte, Odetta and Sammy Davis come
to mind. Does a part of you wish that Armstrong had done more?
A: He did not want to be on the end of that violence, as he said himself. He donated
to the NAACP, he donated to all the causes, he was a follower of Martin Luther King,
he supported him. As to him doing more, the truth is that he came up so early that
he did more just by surviving. I could list the accomplishments, but what he did
he did it without fanfare. In 1967, he did an interview with Larry King where he
kind of bragged about it for the first time. He said, "I was the first black entertainer
to crack the white hotels." He had it in his contract that he wouldn't play anywhere
where he couldn't stay. That's a major thing. He was the first black entertainer
to have nationally-sponsored broadcasts with the "Fleishmann's Yeast Show." He broke
down so many barriers but he did it without holding press conferences. It all goes
back to the great Lester Bowie quote, where Bowie referred to Louis Armstrong as
a true revolutionary. A normal revolutionary is waving in the streets and the cops
just arrest him, but a true revolutionary is the guy who smiled and put a little
poison in his coffee. I think Louis would have agreed to that 100%.
Louis talks about Josephine Baker. She came back to America in 1951 and she played
an engagement that was supposed to be in front of a segregated audience. So she went
to the black press and she raised a whole furor: "I'm not playing unless I can get
my black fans there." And the press covered her and then she went back to Europe
and that was the end. And she got some criticism from the black press -- "What does
she think she's doing, coming over here and stirring up things?" And there's a private
tape where Louis talks about this moment and gets very upset about her and says:
"If she had talent, she wouldn't raise no hell at all. She wouldn't have to open
her mouth. Her ability would speak for itself." So I think that's really where Louis
came from. He did so many things for civil rights. He broke down so many barriers
for musicians who came after him, but because he didn't go around beating his chest
about it, people seemed to forget about it. They didn't know what was going on behind
the scenes. But hopefully, now that that story is coming out, perceptions will start
to change.
Q: Was there any material you left on the cutting room floor, so to speak?
A: My cutting room floor is still difficult to navigate. I mentioned my thesis, which
was 350 pages, but it ended in 1961 and Louis died in 1971. My mentor, Lewis Porter,
had to calm me down on my thesis, telling me to save it for the book. So I graduated
from Rutgers in 2005, but I had to finish the story and during 2005, 2006 and 2007
I kept writing, I kept researching, I kept adding. I started coming out here to the
Louis Armstrong House Museum, listening to the tapes -- adding and adding and adding.
And finally, in 2008 my agent Tony Outhwaite called me and said, "Hey, we have a
book deal with Pantheon." I said, "That's wonderful" And he said, "It should be maybe
100,000 words." I went back to my computer and I opened up my Microsoft word document
and I was at 210,000 words and I said, "Oh boy, I'm going to have to do some editing."
But thankfully, I really feel that it was the best thing that ever happened to me.
If you ever want a laugh, go to the Institute of Jazz Studies where my thesis is
on the shelf. It's so big, it takes up two binders and I'm telling you, it's the
most boring thing you've ever read in your life. It's full of details like, "Then
Louis played here... then he made a recording..." I covered everything in it. When
I began working with my editor at Pantheon, Erroll McDonald, to edit my work down
for the book, I realized that half my research was there. But then it became cathartic
and I'm so proud of what's left in there. I knew what's missing and the good news
is I still have the blog so I can still write about in more detail there. But this
is a book that I hope has appeal for a wide audience. I'm perfectly fine with the
length with the book. Yes, I didn't get to cover every movie or every recording date,
but that's not the final word. Everything that's there is important and does tell
the story.
Q: Which jazz writers influenced you as you were developing and coming up in the
world of jazz journalism?
A: Dan Morgenstern was my man, still is and I'm proud to call him a friend now. His
writings, especially the liner notes for "Louis Armstrong's California Concerts"
and "Louis Armstrong's Chicago Concert" really set me on the path. It seemed like
everyone was knocking the All Star period, but Dan had the other slant and he helped
point me in the right direction. Gary Giddins' book "Satchmo" was a huge huge influence
and one of the first Armstrong books I read. Gary got it also. So these two are the
big ones, but I went through all the major figures: Nat Hentoff naturally, Whitney
Balliett. I ate it all up.
Q: Whom do you enjoy reading now?
A: I pretty much live in the blogging universe these days. I always start off with
Michael Steinman's Jazz Lives. Michael and I almost share a heartbeat when it comes
to music -- he really gets it and shares such great videos. Also Marc Meyers's Jazz
Wax and Doug Ramsey. Chris Albertson has a great blog. Terry Teachout and Will Friedwald.
These are my guys and I check them out as much as I can.
Q: What non-fiction or biographies outside of the world of music do you admire and
find yourself rereading?
A: The other books I tend to go towards are sports books and entertainment books.
I'm a movie buff and I'm a die-hard New York Yankee fan. I'm a big baseball fan.
Recently I read Jan Leavy's Mickey Mantle biography and that was pretty great. I
didn't get around to the Willie Mays biography -- that and the Hank Aaron bio are
on my bookshelf. And boxing books. I think I'm one of the ten remaining boxing fans
in America.
Q: What are your feelings about the future of the print media (newspapers, magazines
and books) and its effect on jazz and music criticism?
A: I'm a big supporter of print media. I still like to read newspapers and I still
like magazines. I read JazzTimes, for example. I like holding things in my hand and
I take a bus to work and I like bringing things to read. At the same time, when I'm
on the bus and I look around, I see everyone sitting around with Kindles and iPads,
so, yes, I think the writing is on the wall. Mentioning blogs, I can attribute a
lot of things that have happened in my life to me starting the Armstrong blog --
meeting people from around the world. I never got paid a dime for it but it ended
up being the best thing that ever happened to me. So I sincerely hope that there's
a future for the print media, but nowadays, because every person in the world can
fire up a blog, I don't know what the future brings. I check my morning round-up
of blogs and it's great, I feel up to date. It's thriving and it's living and it's
out there. Michael Steinman is a college professor so it's a labor of love. My Armstrong
blog is a labor of love for me which I would do on the side. Between college with
a Master's degree and working here at the Armstrong House museum, I helped my father
as a painting contractor. I would paint by day and blog by night. So I don't think
blogging is putting food on anybody's table. But they're getting music out there
-- which I think is great for the musicians.
Q: What's next as far as another book project?
A: I have a million ideas. We'll see what the reaction is to this book. Naturally,
if there's enough positive reaction, I would love to do Armstrong again, maybe take
it back to the middle years, maybe 1929 through 1947, some of his big band period.
Or a book about the private tapes. I've listened to so many of them to get information
for this book but there is so much on there -- Louis talking about his upbringing
and other stories that might make a fascinating book.
The other dream biography I've always wanted to do is Slim Gaillard. I've actually
been in contact with his family members and they would love to see a book written
about him. I've acquired a fair amount of research and videos in just about everything
he's ever recorded. I think that book would be a ball to write. I've just got to
see if these days in the publishing industry if anyone would want to take a chance
on it. He was from another planet and his story is very very funny, very crazy, filled
with all of these tall tales but at the same time, he had major major records, which
were covered by everybody. He had recordings with Charlie Parker, he was mentioned
by Jack Kerouac and his last record before he died in 1991 was a bona fide rap record.
He kind of had this chameleon career. He was just so goofy and yet he always brought
the best people to his party. For example, he had Ben Webster on his record dates
or Milt Jackson played drums for one record date and there was a broadcast from Birdland
with Art Blakey on drums. He was very much in the world but also sort of a comic
figure. But he could play guitar, he was a good singer and piano player, and he wrote
these weird songs. He was a very bizarre man but his music was so much fun. I can't
think of anyone else who could write a song about potato chips which could stick
in your head for days.


--Bob Ringwald
www.ringwald.com
Fulton Street Jazz Band
530/ 642-9551 Office
916/ 806-9551 Cell
Amateur (Ham) Radio K6YBV

I've just been so pre-occupied with this Anthony Weiner deal.  
Will he attempt to retain his congressional seat or accept the job offered to him 
to be spokesman for Oscar Mayer???