[Dixielandjazz] Small Band Swing or Dixieland?

[Stephen G Barbone]

On Feb 15, 2011, at 3:00 PM, dixielandjazz-request at ml.islandnet.com  
wrote:

> Marvin Ipswich <cornet at clearwire.net> wrote:
>
> Steve,
> The term "small band swing" goes back at least to 1935-36 with groups
> playing on 52nd Street - bands like Stuff Smith, John Kirby, the  
> Spirits of
> Rhythm, Frankie Newton's band, et. al. I certainly wouldn't ever  
> consider
> that to be called dixieland. Louis Prima and Wingy Manone - maybe.  
> But even
> Wingy recorded with Chu Berry, whom I don't consider to be a dixieland
> musician by any stretch.  I believe the term "small band swing" was  
> firmly
> in place by that time and being used in the press, by the public and  
> by
> musicians.
>
> I often think - 'what would the musicians themselves call the music  
> they
> played?" Do you really believe that DeParis, Vic, Ben and Catlett  
> would call
> themselves dixieland musicians? I doubt it, although I also doubt  
> they would
> even consider themselves swing musicians, especially since the music  
> was
> still called jazz at that time. It also seems to me that even though  
> the
> DeParis brothers later played in would might be termed by some a  
> "dixieland"
> band, I don't think Wilbur ever referred to it that way, calling it  
> the "New
> New Orleans" Jazz Band. Both brothers had a long history of work  
> with swing
> bands like Don Redman and Benny Carter.
>
> Referencing the version by James P.'s band of After You've Gone, I  
> can't
> honestly call "Victory Stride," from the same session, a dixieland
> recording.
>
> It might be more useful to consider what the music was referred to  
> at the
> time. What would a review in Downbeat of the above mentioned After  
> You've
> Gone, refer to the music as? Likely it would be "small band swing"  
> since, as
> I stated above, that was the generally used term.

Dear Marvin:

I agree with you (and Richard Sudhalter) that the term small band  
swing was used by the media and many fans as early as 1935, maybe  
earlier.

And having seen Wilbur DeParis at Ryan's many times in the 1950s,  
there is no doubt he thought of his band as a New Orleans Jazz Band.  
But most of the college kids who saw him there with me thought of it  
as Dixieland, albeit in New Orleans style. (Ah the impreciseness of  
categories <grin>)

Conrad Janis is of the opinion (I think) that DeParis stole the Ryan's  
gig from him at lower pay while incorporating a style that Janis  
started. A mixture of Kansas City Swing with New Orleans revival  
style. And Dickenson was a playing a lot with the Condon gang in a  
Dixieland format.

Then too, personally, I have a hard time saying that stride pianist JP  
Johnson would call his playing, small band swing.

Sudhalter points our that by the mid 1930s, small band swing seemed to  
be the music of black players in the eyes of the media and fans, while  
Dixieland seemed to be the music of white players in the eyes of those  
same fans. But in his opinion, the music was virtually the same. He  
then provides the following example:

"A 1937 pick-up group led by Teddy Wilson . . . recorded "I've Found a  
New Baby" with Buck Clayton, Buster Bailey, and Lester Young as the  
horns. It was heard and discussed as 'small band swing'. When two  
years later Bud Freeman's Summa Cum Laude Orchestra with Max Kaminsky,  
Pee Wee Russell, and Brad Gowans in the front line recorded the same  
number in much the same style, it was 'dixieland'."

"The two performances, similar in structure and feel, draw on ensemble  
polylinearity and band riffing . . . As Bud put it many years later,  
'You can't say to a jazz performer, whose talent is worth anything,  
that he plays avant=garde, or dixieland, or that he is a modern or  
even a proponent of the Chicago style. A substantial musician will  
say, 'I just play'."  END QUOTE.

I agree with that view, or as Condon put it, "We called it music".  
Having seen Condon respond to fans at his joint when buttonholed about  
his supposed "Chicago Style" band, with various put downs about how he  
was from Indiana and lived in NYC most of his life, I can appreciate  
the humorous sincerity of that view.

50 Years ago I played a gig with guest artist Roy Eldridge while with  
Southampton Dixie Racing and Clambake Society Jazz Band. A couple of  
older fans came up to him and after complimenting him said. "Roy, we  
didn't know you played Dixieland" His response with a little smile was  
"Thank you, but I've been playing Dixieland all my life."

Cheers,
Steve Barbone
www.myspace.com/barbonestreetjazzband