[Dixielandjazz] tuba, bass sax etc.

[Stephen G Barbone]

Dear Bill:

You do indeed stir the pot. There are indeed many inconsistencies  
which cannot be reconciled without a time machine. From the other side  
of the coin:

1) If Oliver did not actually use a string bass, why do his publicity  
photos include one?

Perhaps he did in live performance, but was unhappy with the way it  
recorded and so switched to the instruments you mention when recording  
in 1923.

2) Friars and NORK do indeed use s sting bass on early recordings.

Perhaps they were happy with the recorded sound they got. Also since  
NORK was self admittedly trying to copy the black bands of the day,  
their use of string bass would imply that black bands used a string  
bass in live performance.

3) Johnson's string bass was indeed powerful as demonstrated on the  
Dodd's record you cite.

However, bear in mind that the record was made in 1926 after recording  
technology had changed and string bass sounds were now able to be  
recorded much more accurately.

4) Luter did not use a string bass.

He was trying to reprise what Oliver sounded like, with only the  
recorded output as a guide. Since Oliver had not recorded with a  
string bass, Luter did likewise. I agree with you that Luter comes  
closest to the Oliver CJB sound as recorded. But I also think it is  
quite possible he fell into the trap that we all do when listening to  
early recorded music. Specifically, that what is on record accurately  
reflects how the band sounded in live performance, unhampered by  
technical restrictions..

Cheers,
Steve Barbone
www.myspace.com/barbonestreet



On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 AM, dixielandjazz-request at ml.islandnet.com  
wrote:

>  Bill Haesler
> In John Gill's excellent summary he wrote:
>> Oliver didn't use a tuba until he organized his larger orchestra in  
>> the mid 1920's. His classic records use bass and bass sax.
>
> Sorry John,
> Not on the classic Oliver Creole Jazz Band recordings.
> April, June & October 1923 it was banjo (no sting bass).
> 25 October 1923 a bass sax was added.
> 26 October & 24 December bass sax, but no banjo.
> Sorry about that.
> Bill Johnson teamed up with King Oliver in 1922 and, it seems was  
> band manager in 1923.
> Based on a study of the music press reports, there is some doubt  
> that he actually played, on a regular basis, with the band during  
> 1923.
> And incidentally, contrary to some discographal claims, the banjo  
> player on the early Oliver Creole Jazz Band recordings is Bud Scott.  
> My ears told me so back in the 1940s. They still do.
> Yes, Johnson is shown holding a bass and banjo in some of the Oliver  
> CJB publicity photos. But throughout 1923 there was no string bass  
> on the band's recordings.
> Perhaps, as has been suggested, the primitive recording systems  
> could not pick up a string bass properly.
> If so, how come the Friars Society Orchestra used Steve Brown on  
> string bass in the same Gennett studios in August 1922.
> Johnson's bass playing on later 1920s recordings was certainly very  
> powerful, in the New Orleans tradition.
> As can be heard on Johnny Dodds Washboard Band's "Bull Fiddle  
> Blues" (Chicago. 6 July 1926):
>  http://redhotjazz.com/Songs/dodds/bullfiddle.ram
> To compare the Oliver and Watters band has always been a silly  
> notion, as you have pointed out.
> Back in the mid 40s I loved that happy Watter's sound.
> I still do.
> The only jazz-revival band to come close to the Oliver CJB sound (on  
> record) was led by Paris-based Frenchman Claude Luter in 1947.  
> Before Sidney Bechet took it over as his 'backing band'.
> And, in the Oliver tradition, Luter did not use string bass on his  
> records at this time.
> If you can find it, listen to the Luter original, "Pimlico".
> I used to play this French Swing 78 to friends as a newly discovered  
> unissued Oliver CJB test pressing!
> Playing it now for old times sake.