[Dixielandjazz] Ma's See See Rider

[Bill Haesler]

> Regarding Ma Rainey's "See See Rider", I'm a bit puzzled by my own  
> documentation. I have it on London AL3501 whence I wrote down the  
> original information that agrees with your information, except that  
> I wrote down Lovie Austin on piano. At a later date (without the  
> qualifying footnote I usually append) I've written matrix number  
> 1925-1, title "See See Blues", recording place and date  New York  
> 16/10/1924, Fletcher Henderson piano and "unknown" Drums.
> My question is: Have I mixed two separate recordings together, or,  
> if not, how have I got this conflicting information?

Dear Bob,
Sorry about the delay.
There have been far more interruptions than I anticipated.
But, at last, here are the answers to your queries regarding "See See  
Rider Blues" by Ma Rainey Acc: by Her Georgia Jazz Band, on this  
occasion a contingent from the Fletcher Henderson with Louis Armstrong.
And (as usual with me) probably more than you needed to know.
Uninterested DJMLers should hit <delete> now.
When the London 10" Origins of Jazz LP series came out in the early  
1950s (released under license from Riverside in the US, who initiated  
the project) I was cofounder and assistant editor of 'Matrix' Jazz  
Record Research Magazine.
Unfortunately, the discographal information for the first Riverside/ 
London releases was minimal and did not reflect up-to-date information  
being uncovered by diligent, keen-eared record collectors at this time.
In Matrix No. 2 [September 1954], as a more formal 'William J  
Haesler', I initiated the  'London - Jazz Archive Series' to provide  
"complete discographical" details  to "help clear up those queries  
which are bound to come up." My intention was to supply full,  
available information with personnel, recording dates, corrections,  
additions and comments over and beyond the Riverside/London album  
details and and to provide a forum in Matrix for "queries, theories  
and arguments" to be resolved.
My own first Note stated: "Lovie Austin is often given as pianist for  
the Ma Rainey date but I cannot understand why. What little piano can  
be heard is unlike the Austin accompaniments of this period, and is  
similar to Henderson's accompaniments (with his band) of 1924-25."
So where did the claim for Lovie Austin's presence originate?
I've just checked my bookshelf. With our 'bible' at that time and the  
probable source of your notation on the LP.
The 1948 edition of Charles Delauney's 'New Hot Discogragphy' (page 50).
In Matrix, I also noted (by listening) that drummer Kaiser Marshall  
only played on "Countin' The Blues" from the session. Not cymbal, as  
mentioned by Jos Willems in his definitive 2006 Louis Armstrong  
discography "All Of Me", but a side drum beat in the final two choruses.

Now for the song titles "See See Blues, See See Rider Blues and See  
See Rider", which was composed by Ma Rainey and Lena Arant.
There were two masters recorded of this blues on the day, both issued  
on Paramount 12252.
Unfortunately, the first pressings were labelled "See See Blues" in  
error. Subsequent re-pressings corrected this to "See See Rider  
Blues". Over the years the blues became known as "See See Rider [CC  
Rider]", which may explain the use of alternative titles on the label  
and cover of the London LP AL3501.
So far as the date is is concerned, it was originally suggested as  
November 1924 based on early studies of the Paramount matrix series  
and release dates advertised in the black press at the time. This was  
refined during the 1950s-60s by discographers to c.16 October 1961.

Regarding Anton Crouch's suggestion of an alto sax on the session, I  
believe he is hearing the occasional low clarinet notes played by  
Buster Bailey. Close listening shows a continuous clarinet pattern  
throughout (to my ears, anyway). No sax.

While on the subject of this Ma Rainey record session, have you  
listened carefully to her clever lyrics on "Countin' The Blues"? (She  
was the author.)
She weaves in names of fourteen popular blues titles of the period,  
including some of her own: "Memphis, Rampart, Beale Street, Graveyard,  
'Bama Bound, Stingaree, Southern, Down Hearted, Gulf Coast, Midnight,  
Jail House, Bad Luck, Bo Weevil and Moonshine".
Count 'em.
Very kind regards,
Bill.