[Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax

Fri Mar 21 21:32:25 PDT 2008

The problem with many, if not all, of the soprano players today is that
their horns sound like oboes.  That's not what a soprano is supposed to
sound like!  If you want an instrument to sound "oboesque," get an oboe!

Listen instead to guys like Kenny Davern or Bob Wilbur on soprano.  Their
sound is warm and round. I don't care much for Bechet's vibrato, but his
sound is big and round!

An instrument dealer friend of mine told me that, before Kenny G made it
big, he couldn't give away sopranos.  Then came Kenny G, and he couldn't
keep them on the shelf.  But the problem I see is that with all the
recording Gorelek has done in the last fifteen years, kids growing up in
this era will think that his sound is what a soprano is supposed to sound
like. That's a shame.

Don't get me wrong.  Kenny G is an excellent musian.  He has tremendous
technique, breath control and fine phrasing.  He's found a niche, and more
power to him for that.  But I just don't like his soprano sound.

BTW, I heard Kenny G on tenor playing Body and Soul.  He wasn't Hawkings,
Webster or Rouse, but he wasn't bad either.

Jack Bryce

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
To: "Jack Bryce" <brycejo at comcast.net>
Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>;
<russg at redshift.com>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax

> > I use the soprano when I am out doors or any situation where I want to
> > produce a bigger sound than I can get with my clarinet.
>
> That's a big advantage outside -------- A friend of mine who has pretty
much
> quit playing did many of the neatest licks and had a wonderful tone but in
> almost every situation couldn't be heard, even inside if there was any
crowd
> noise.  I always found that to be exceptionally disappointing.
>
> Mouthpieces do make a difference but I find them to be like toothbrushes.
> It's personal.  What works for me may not work for you.  The height of the
> mouthpiece just inside the tip makes a huge difference in sound and can
> range between very harsh to very mellow.  I prefer the more open on
soprano
> but higher the lower the sax.  My Bari mouthpiece is a jazz mouthpiece and
> is very flat and high in that area.  It has a lot of edge to the sound.
Not
> exactly a concert band sound.
> _________________________________________________
>  My
> > friends in the band prefer the clarinet because it has a sweeter tone.
>
> especially in the low register.  I am partial to the clarinet too for many
> of the same reasons but since due to some nerve damage I can no longer
> reliably play one I'm more or less permanently on the Soprano.
>
> Unfortunately many players just can't seem to get anything out of a
soprano.
> Exactly why I'm not sure except they try to play it like a clarinet which
it
> definitely isn't.  The second thing is that they don't pay any attention
to
> the two distinct sounds the soprano makes in it's two basic registers.
Most
> saxes and clarinets too sound pretty much the same in all octaves even
with
> fairly unskilled players.
>
> It boils down to the fact that you just can't poke the soprano in your
face
> and blow and expect anything good to come of it.  You have to be a careful
> listener with a lot of good things going for you before your even touch
one.
> Even in the hands of a good player the instrument can be iffy.   That's
why
> I say most players shouldn't play them.  It's bad for them because they
get
> frustrated and hate the horn.  It's bad for the listener too and they hate
> it.  That's a lose, lose situation.
>
> The soprano is a different kind of sound and should sound very much like
an
> English horn at least to my ears anyway.  I think in part it's due to the
> conical bore of both instruments vs. a straight bore.
> Larry
> StL
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Russ Guarino" <russguarino at comcast.net>
> To: "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
> Cc: <russg at redshift.com>; "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List"
> <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 4:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
>
>
> >I play my soprano with a wide bore mouthpiece.  I also have a Selmer
> >mouthpiece that is a narrow bore that I find produces a less
> > robust tone.
> >
> > I use the soprano when I am out doors or any situation where I want to
> > produce a bigger sound than I can get with my clarinet.  My
> > friends in the band prefer the clarinet because it has a sweeter tone.
> >
> > Russ Guarino
> >
> > "Larry Walton Entertainment - St. Louis" wrote:
> >
> >> Paul - Remember that our concept of saxophone tone has changed
radically
> >> over
> >> the years, and few of today's players would be satisfied with the sort
> >> of tone the early models produced, and even less comfortable playing
> >> on the mouthpiece facings that were prevalent in the 1920s. But
> >> matched with an appropriate mouthpiece of the right vintage, these
> >> instruments could be played rather well in tune.
> >>
> >> LW - Well that could account for a lot of it.
> >>
> >>  Paul - I might even go so
> >> far as to say they could be more in tune than what some players manage
> >> on contemporary instruments!
> >>
> >> LW - It seems that there is almost a soprano mania going on with young
> >> players since KG started playing his stuff.  I suppose a lot of players
> >> are
> >> buying them who just shouldn't.  I have said it before that the soprano
> >> isn't for the average player and never for the beginner or even
> >> intermediate
> >> player.  I would even go so far to say that many of the semi pro guys
> >> should
> >> think about finding a nice closet to store theirs in.  The horn is
simply
> >> capable of some really awful sounds and even on a modern horn the
> >> intonation
> >> is problematical for the average player.  It's really hard for a
teacher
> >> to
> >> tell a good student that he just isn't ready for the instrument without
> >> discouraging them or seeming to be a put down.
> >> Larry
> >> StL
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Paul Edgerton" <paul.edgerton at gmail.com>
> >> To: "Larry Walton" <larrys.bands at charter.net>
> >> Cc: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 12:51 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] More on Sopramno Sax
> >>
> >> > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Larry Walton Entertainment - St.
> >> > Louis <larrys.bands at charter.net> wrote:
> >> >> Yes, I think the other writer meant the C melody sometimes called a
C
> >> >> tenor.
> >> >>  As far as I know there were never any C soprano's but I suppose
there
> >> >> could
> >> >>  be.
> >> >
> >> > Yes, there were C sopranos and C tenors, which as you noted were
> >> > usually called C-melody saxophones. In fact, there was a whole family
> >> > of saxes pitched in C and F. The F alto was also called a
> >> > mezzo-soprano. The oldest saxophone in existence is an F baritone
with
> >> > a range only to low B that was made by Adolphe himself. This family
of
> >> > saxophones was intended for orchestral use while the more familiar Bb
> >> > and Eb models were intended for military bands.
> >> >
> >> >>  Most if not all sopranos made before 1950 are pure junk.  Virtually
> >> >>  impossible to play in tune and the tone is pretty bad.
> >> >
> >> > I'll add a couple of comments to this: While many old saxes were
never
> >> > more than cheap mass-market horns and haven't aged well, some
> >> > Bueschers, Conns, Holtons and Martins were quite good, not to mention
> >> > Selmer, Buffet and SML.
> >> >
> >> > Remember that our concept of saxophone tone has changed radically
over
> >> > the years, and few of today's players would be satisfied with the
sort
> >> > of tone the early models produced, and even less comfortable playing
> >> > on the mouthpiece facings that were prevalent in the 1920s. But
> >> > matched with an appropriate mouthpiece of the right vintage, these
> >> > instruments could be played rather well in tune. I might even go so
> >> > far as to say they could be more in tune than what some players
manage
> >> > on contemporary instruments!
> >> >
> >> > One critical variable is mouthpiece chamber volume. Mouthpieces are
> >> > constructed to replace the truncated portion of the saxophone's
> >> > conical bore. Nearly all of the old ones were made with very close
> >> > facings. Most of the original mouthpieces that have been refaced to a
> >> > more modern and more open style were typically filed down enough to
> >> > reduce the internal volume significantly -- ruining the intonation.
> >> > That is especially true for tiny soprano mouthpieces.
> >> >
> >> > But as JD says, some of those old horns have a gorgeous sound.
> >> >
> >> > -- Paul Edgerton
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >>
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