[Dixielandjazz] A message for Chris Tyle

[Marek Boym]

Aren't you doing just the thing of which you accuse Chris?
Actually, your quotes seem to be proving his point.
Isham Jones' opinion, in this case, is meaningless.  All the bands WE
- NOW - consider jazz bands, were playing for dancing; hence, they
were all "dance bands."  This goes for Henderson, the Duke, BG, Basie,
Shaw - you name it.

And Chris is right - the term was coined to describe a larger band,
playing, for the most part, rather dreary arrangements, with an
occasional burst of a "hot" solo.  While, for the most part, applied
to "white" bands, there were black bands like that as well.
As to the Devil Mountain, you seem to ignore an important word in your
quote : "The eight piece concert/festival band is best known for the
two trumpet sounds of the Joe Oliver and Lu Watters bands and  The
Orchestrated "hot dance" music of the late twenties."
Once you do an imitation, you don't really need the large size.
Besides, there are exceptions to every rule; the  George Olsen's band
is only worth hearing because of the Red Nichols' solos, being
otherwise rather stodgy, and thus qualifying for the "hot dance"
definition despite its size.
And a technical question: how does one get bold letters, italics or
underlines in Gmail?  I've used caps because I had no idea how to
underline the key phrase.

BTW, I like Tex Wyndham's playing, but I have a recording of his
explanation of the differences between the various traditional jazz
styles, and find much of it ridiculous (but the "illustrations" are
great).
Cheers


On 06/07/2008, Stephen G Barbone <barbonestreet at earthlink.net> wrote:
> My oh my Chris, you are a frustrated old man aren't you?
>
> When you can't discuss facts and logically support your wrong headed
> opinions, you get personal.  What's new? That is how all small men in this
> world act. Here is a recap and rebuttal of your diatribe.
>
> You stated that Hot Dance was coined to describe is big band (over 10 piece)
> music, with hot solos. And was not Dixieland.  That conclusion is simply not
> factual and you supplied no sources other than your own unverifiable
> "research".
>
>  I supply another person's opinion and you immediately put HIM down rather
> than discussing that opinion. That speaks volumes about who you are/aren't.
>
> Now here are some facts and opinions by others. See if you can put these
> sources down.
>
> 1)  What is Hot Dance? Here's what Dick Sudhalter said in Lost Chords about
> it:
>
> "early jazz writers - as writers will - invented categories. 'Big Band Jazz'
> usually referred to the output of black bands, playing speciality hot
> instrumentals for the recording studio microphones. Their white
> counterparts, with very few exceptions, were identified as 'hot dance'
> units." . . .
>
> "Roughly expressed, a characteristic 'hot dance' performance went like this:
> first an ensemble chorus (and often verse) setting out the melody, played
> more or less straight, scored as well as an arranger could manage. Then a
> vocal, lyric and melody clearly defined, usually by a contract singer whose
> trademark was clarity. . . ."
>
> "The rest of the record usually belonged to the band-as long as things
> didn't get out of hand. . . "
>
> It appears from this that Big Band Jazz was Black and Hot Dance was White,
> but the music was the same. Could a Hot Dance Band, simply be a White Jazz
> Band?
>
> 2) What kind of music did Oliver's Band play? Once again, source "Lost
> Chords":
>
> Isham Jones told his band to see Oliver. (circa 1922) "The whole Jones band
> would go over there to listen", Jim Breyerly, longtime Jones manager, told
> James T. Maher, "because the old man (Jones) believed that Joe Oliver had
> one of the best dance orchestras in Chicago."
>
> So you can call Oliver's musical output what ever the hell you like, but his
> Isham Jones called it dance music.
>
> 3) Does Hot Dance have to have solos? Or large Bands as you categorically
> misstate?
>
> Apparently not. See the 1928 Warner Brothers Vitaphone "Hot Dance Band" at:
>
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHYHAh88MbY
>
> Small Band, no solos yet described as Hot Dance.
>
> 4) Hot Dance Band Size: Check out the Devil Mountain Jazz Band website for a
> description of what their 8 piece jazz band plays. To save you the trouble
> of looking it up, it says;" The eight piece concert/festival band is best
> known for the two trumpet sounds of the Joe Oliver and Lu Watters bands and
> the orchestrated "hot dance" music of the late twenties."
>
> I guess, since they are a small band, you should put them down for that
> statement?
>
> And I note that while you have trouble calling Fletcher Henderson's pre
> Louis Armstrong band a jazz band, Sudhalter and a whole bunch of other
> literati and fans call it exactly that. Put them all down, me included.
>
> My conclusions are these. (1) You can't successfully discuss the merits of
> your case, so you violently and childishly seek to denigrate those who
> disagree with you. I thought you were man enough to overcome that but I
> guess I was wrong. and (2) terms like "Hot dance" certainly becomes
> meaningless as people define the term differently. And obviously as above,
> no one seems to have come up with a cogent definition of the term. Not you,
> not Tex, not Sudhalter, Not Brittany Spears, Not the local stripper etc.,
> etc., ad nauseum.
>
> That you didn't get a laugh out of the Spears and Electra videos of hot
> dancing doesn't surprise me. You just got too old, too quick.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
>
>
>
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