[Dixielandjazz] Playing for free

[King'ori Gitahi]

Hi,

Im no pro yet :) but i would neva play4free. Evrythn has a price, that
mkting exec wil put it nn his cv that he managed 2pul off a deal where
the band played free for the good of ol mankind (yeah ryt). That wil
get him some mileage if not a promotion down the line. So what exactly
is free. I play sax, i invest in good reeds that ensure i sound good
at your gig. Reeds cost money, then theirs transport of my horns music
stands mic's etc.  the only scenari6 under which i would play free is
for charity and even then at your cost not mine. That means transport,
meals and reeds. Thats jus my2cents.

King'ori

On 04/02/2008, Stephen G Barbone <barbonestreet at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > "Robert S. Ringwald" <robert at ringwald.com> wrote
> >
> > Steve, I have received a great deal of e-mail from the REAL pros
> > thanking me
> > for writing the e-mail to the baseball exec.  I'm not sure why you
> > use the
> > word "we" but most "good, professional" musicians do not work for
> > free and
> > appreciate what I wrote to the gentleman.  According to the response
> > I have
> > received, you are very much in the minority on this one.
>
> That's not the point. The point was that "we" musicians in large
> measure, have created the situation of others asking us to play free.
> Not the pros generally but others. Want to make a real difference?
> Write to those bands that play free.
>
> > Steve, I can't speak for any other Jazz Society.  However, the only
> > one I
> > play for, for free is the Sacramento Traditional Jazz Society, and
> > only for
> > their monthly concerts.  I personally do this as a pay back for all
> > the STJS
> > has done for Jazz, including the annual Sacramento Jazz Jubilee, the
> > annual
> > Jazz in the Park concerts, the annual Library concert series and other
> > events which STJS sponsors and for which we get paid.
>
> I don't doubt you, the comment was directed at those jazz societies
> that do ask and or have bands that play free for "exposure". If STJS
> has never done that, hooray. Others have and still do.
>
> > Plus, the youth music programs that STJS sponsors: The annual STJS
> > Youth
> > Camp, scholarship awards for music lessons, the TNT (The New
> > Traditionalists) youth band which STJS sponsors and the Traditional
> > Jazz
> > Youth Jazz Festival, 3rd annual coming up this month.
> >
> > To me, lending my time and talent to STJS is akin to belonging to
> > the Lions,
> > Elks, or any number of organizations who work for and sponsor various
> > charities, hospitals, etc.
> >
> > This is the only organization that I play for free for and it is
> > only the
> > once a month Jazz concerts.  This is my personal decision, just the
> > same as
> > your decision on which charity and how, to support.
>
> No argument there, but it's off point. Personally, I pay the band
> members out of my own pocket so that they do not play free when I
> donate the band for a freebie
>
> >> I applaud the marketing exec  for asking. That's his job.
>
> > And as a a professional musician it is my prerogative to to point
> > out to him the absurdity of his request.
> >
> > When Sacramento had a triple A ball team, I often played for the
> > games.
> > We always got paid.
> >
> > When I lived in Los Angeles, we played for the Raiders and always
> > got paid.
>
> I agree that you can do anything you want, and never even suggested
> that YOU played for free. I just said it is funny that the marketing
> exec was taken to task but not those bands that play free. But was his
> request "absurd"? I bet you there are several bands around that will
> happily play that kind of gig free.
>
> >> I deplore
> >> the comments we direct at him for doing his job. The dialog should be
> >> between the exec and Stumptown.
> >
> > Perhaps you forget that his post was posted on a public forum with
> > over 550
> > members, many of whom are professional musicians?  If we don't stand
> > up for
> > ourselves, who is going to???
>
> It was directed at Stumptown and/or bands that might play free.
> Rather than raising hell with the marketing exec, you might have
> raised hell with bands that play for free.
>
> >> On the other hand, I have nothing but contempt for bands that play
> >> for
> >> free. If they didn't do it, we wouldn't have folks asking for
> >> freebies. And along that line of reasoning, I deplore the bands that
> >> play on OKOM cruises for room and partial board. Of course, alcohol
> >> is
> >> not included, nor are the mandatory tips to the crew ($100 per
> >> person)
> >> and so you are paying to play. That cruise operator whose butt you
> >> kiss, profits mightily from your stupidity. And now there are cruises
> >> where musicians pay full price, just to get a chance to play.
> >> (imagine
> >> 40 banjos on the most recent one)That's even worse. Who among us will
> >> write to the cruise operator and raise hell?
> >> Or to our friendly musicians who facilitate this stupidity?
> >>
> >
> > Steve, I'll be doing a cruise to Alaska with Bob Schulz's Frisco
> > Jazz Band,
> > along with fellow listmate Scott Anthony,  in July.  We are not
> > paying partial board.  Our airfare and complete ticket is paid for
> > plus that
> > of our wives or companions.  It is a bartering situation.  As far as
> > I am
> > concerned, there is nothing wrong with bartering for your music, or
> > whatever
> > as long as both parties are satisfied and both parties get what they
> > want.
>
> Ha ha, that is exactly what the marketing exec did. He was attempting
> to barter exposure and game tickets for the bands services. Under your
> logic above that is now OK? You might not agree to the exec's
> bartering arrangement but others might and it is they who we should
> convince of the error of their ways, rather than one guy in a minor
> league baseball town. Getting mad at him is all posture and no real
> action.
> >
> > As Stubby will attest, and as any other musician who has been hired by
> > cruise lines will attest, working, playing music aboard a ship is
> > not the
> > greatest life in the world.  your board is in the bowels of the
> > ship, you
> > eat crew food and the cruise line can work you to death.  in port
> > you have
> > to wait for all passengers to disembark before you can do so.
> >
> > in our case, because we are not employees  of the cruise line, and
> > because
> > our ticket and the ticket of our companion is paid for, we get very
> > nice
> > cabins, we are treated as regular customers, eating steak and
> > lobster in the
> > dining room, etc.
> >
> > Thus for doing one or two sets a night of the kind of music we love
> > to play,
> > we get a paid vacation for ourselves as well as our companions.  We
> > get a
> > full week aboard a luxury ship, visit several ports, get our roundtrip
> > flight for
> > ourselves  and companion paid for, hotel paid for if lay over.  To
> > me, we
> > are not giving our talent away, we are bartering for a nice vacation.
> >
> > How many gigs would you have to play in order to get enough money to
> > have
> > this sort of a vacation for yourself and your wife?  Why not play them
> > aboard a ship and have a fabulous vacation?  You can stay home and
> > play your
> > gigs and I will be on a wonderful cruise to
> > Alaska.
>
> Funny you should ask. Last week I played 2 gigs that would cover a
> vacation cruise for my wife and me should I choose to take one.
> >
> >> Stubby Heist had the right idea. He was contracted for money to play
> >> music. Anything beyond that sucks.
> >
> > The type of music Stubby had to play, his living conditions while
> > aboard,
> > his playing schedule, of course I would not do that for free.  But
> > in our
> > situation, it is completely different.
> >
> > I'll take a one week fabulous vacation under these conditions any day.
>
> Perhaps so, but you are leaving money on the table that goes to the
> cruise organizer rather than to the musicians, without whom the cruise
> could not take place. You have undervalued your services.
>
> > Regarding 40 banjo players paying their way, these guys are
> > obviously not
> > professionals.  They have every right to take a cruise, bring their
> > banjos,
> > play together and have a great time.
>
> That's exactly what I said.
>
> > Many groups and organizations get together to enjoy each other's
> > company.
> > It may be in a coffee shop, a hotel, a bar, a picnic, or even a
> > cruise.
> > They are paying their way thus they are not under any obligation to
> > play or
> > not play.  Who are you to say that they should not pay for their
> > ticket,
> > bring their banjos and play?
>
> You didn't understand what I said.  I did not say they shouldn't.
> Seems to me I said; "If that's what floats your boat, (pun intended)
> go for it".
>
> >> P.S. No need to resent the guy who plays the baseball game for
> >> great seats,
> >> beer and a hot dog either--it all depends on the team and the game.
> >> (quoted from another person, not Steve B who answered) Ha
> >> Ha,reminds me of that old joke about the guy who goes up to a
> >> beautiful woman.
>
> > I don't know about you but, IMHO- taking a luxury cruise aboard a
> > beautiful
> > ship to Alaska is not quite the same as getting a beer and a hot dog
> > at a
> > ball game.
> >
> > I could work a bunch of gigs and then pay for my wife and I to go on
> > this
> > cruise -- Or I can go on the cruise and play my gigs aboard the ship.
> > Personally, I prefer the latter.
>
> No, it's not quite the same. That's what I implied with that old joke
> about sex for $20 or sex for a $1,000,000 and the "What do you think I
> am?"
>
> When you play for room and board you are playing free and that's the
> bottom line. No different than playing for room and board and travel
> to Europe with Liza MineIli or Madonna. You get a great vacation but
> the pros also get paid.  Quite well as one of our trombonists who
> tours with Liza will confirm.
>
> I must admit that I did play free for a cruise once, to Europe and
> back in the 1950s. It was fun, and I spent the Summer gigging in
> Europe. But unlike you, I felt used afterwards. And later in
> discussing it with my professional friends in NYC, they also felt that
> it was a case of being used because the Cruise Line/Operator could
> easily have afforded to pay the band. And he would have paid the band
> had we negotiated properly.
>
> Bottom line on the cruise example I cited is that there is plenty of
> money to pay the bands in addition to room, board and travel to the
> ship.
>
> Price is always a tough issue. Not too different from Wilbut DeParis
> taking the steady gig at Jimmy Ryan's from Conrad Janis circa 1950 or
> so because DeParis decided to underprice the gig. Ask Janis how he
> felt about that sometime.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
>
>
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