[Dixielandjazz] Oh Dem Bones

[James Butler]

What a bunch of B.S.! Let me see if I understand this. We should all 
have a centered sound like every classical "serious" trombonist. Hell 
then we could all be cloned! I am a very ardent admirer of Herb Bruce 
but come on he isn't the end all you know. I would rather listen to 
trombone or any other instrumentalist for that matter with their own 
sound and creative ideas and with great rhythm and time. Most people who 
get on a soapbox like this talk a good line but usually can't play it!

Jim Butler a suckass trombone player

LRG4003 at aol.com wrote:
>  
> WARNING.  A LONG POST WITH A LOT OF  OPINIONS ABOUT TROMBONISTS..  DELETE NOW 
> OR DON'T BLAME ME  LATER....
>  
> Yesterday, i passed along some Trombone  comments from a trombone playing 
> non-list member and saw a number of interesting  responses on DJML which I passed 
> back to him.  I am, again sending you more  of his thoughts (since I can't 
> get him to suck up and join DJM himself).  I  think he has some interesting 
> things to say and would like to hear from any of  you who have the same passion 
> for the instrument and the people who play  it.   (Obviously his tenor sax 
> comment is completely out of  line).     K. C.  Clarinet
>  
>  
>  
> First of all, there are two completely  different issues that need to be 
> explicitly separated.  The first issue is  the one I addressed (and will comment 
> on again below) and has to do with what  standards should be held up as the 
> very best in jazz trombone playing and the  realization that such standards are 
> attainable, even if they are not actually  attained by all professional jazz 
> trombonists.  The second issue is  the enjoyment factor of any and all that love 
> playing the trombone.  You  don't have to be a Christian Lindberg to get 
> enjoyment from playing, thank  heavens!!!  These two issues should NEVER be 
> confused or mixed.  
>  
> As far as the whole jazz trombone standard  of excellence issue goes, it 
> really boils down to the definition people use  as to what really great playing 
> is.  I have heard of most of the players  mentioned below in the notes that you 
> forwarded to me, and some of them are part  of what I previously referred to 
> as the "some players that most people have not  heard of". For instance, I have 
> some of Andy Martin's recordings, and his is a  fine player with a mature 
> technique and solid improvising ability.  
>  
> There are some others also.  I  mentioned Herb Bruce.  I noticed that no one 
> else mentioned him.  They  should have!  Herb can hold court with the best of 
> them.  Every  trombonist should have copies of his last two CD's  "Herbicide" 
> and "Heaven  and Earth".  For goodness sake, go to _www.herbbruce.com_ 
> (http://www.herbbruce.com/)  and buy them!  (No,  I do not get a cut!)  There are 
> other unknown great players.  One  fellow who lives in a small town in Arkansas 
> and has cut at least one CD of jazz  versions of Christian hymns (I have it) is 
> also a monster, but I would bet money  that the total number of people in 
> this country that have heard of him would not  even populate a typical small U.S. 
> town.  And yes, Ron Wilkins is a good  player too.  
>    
> So, you see, I have heard of these  players.  Also, back in the mid to late 
> 1990's a wonderful trombone group  "Spiritual To The Bone" cut about five CD's 
> that are just great.  Herb  Bruce was one of the featured soloists on these 
> CD's.  So, yes there are  some great players out there, and some of them are 
> great jazz players as  well.  But, what I was referring to in my earlier note was 
> great JAZZ  players as opposed to great studio players (not always the same 
> thing by  any stretch of the imagination).  There are some fantastic  studio 
> trombonists in the L.A. area who have banded together over the last  40 years in 
> an informal organization called "Bohanan's Garage"  (The reason  for that 
> name takes too long to explain).  Some of the members of  that organization have 
> put together a great CD called "All My  Concertos".  This is a large trombone 
> ensemble that recorded all the  written compositions of the late studio 
> trombonist/composer Tommy  Pederson.  While this is excellent playing and wonderful 
> compositions,  it is for the most part not jazz in the truest sense of the 
> word.  This is  not a devaluation of the work by any means, simply a statement 
> that not all  great playing is jazz.  
>  
> The Tommy Pederson works are a very  interesting and VERY musically 
> satisfying blend of what I would call jazz  and neo-impressionist/romantic classical 
> music.  The trombonists  playing in this CD are excellent players who have 
> developed a very high level of  competency on their instrument. (For the person who 
> mentioned Alan Kaplan,  he is one of these trombonists. Alan also has a 
> relatively new solo CD out  that is mostly ballad stuff and very well played.)   
> And there are  players like that in all the really big U.S. cities.  However, 
> most of  these people are not great jazz players of the category of an 'in their 
> prime"  Rosolino or Fontana.  And that is what I meant in my earlier  note.  
> If you really want to know what the trombone is capable of these  days, please 
> listen to recordings of Joseph Alessi (principal with NY Phil),  Ian 
> Bousfield (principal with Vienna Phil), Nick Hudson (a true poet of the  trombone and 
> principal with William Fairey Brass Band in England), and of course  Christian 
> Lindberg (with more than 50 CD's to his name now!).  The point of  my first 
> soap box was that the standard for technical excellence in  jazz MUST keep up 
> with what exists in the classical world.   Again, I am not saying that the 
> LEVEL of jazz trombone playing must for all  players keep up with the highest 
> level of playing in the classical world, only  that the STANDARD needs to keep up. 
>  
>  
> Frankly, I am tired of people explicitly or  (what is more common) implicitly 
> trying to either dumb down  the technical standard of jazz trombone playing 
> or justifying  its lower standard (relative to today's classical playing).   I 
> guess my standards for jazz playing are annoyingly high.  They certainly  have 
> gone up over the last 30 years.  For instance, I first heard  Watrous on a 
> late 1960's promotional LP called "The Straight Life"   (pretty ironic title for 
> Bill during that period of time!).  He  also did an almost unknown solo 
> ballad LP called "William Russell Watrous" that  had nothing but sweet ballads 
> backed by strings.  Watrous was an  unknown quantity back then, and did not really 
> become well known until the  mid 70's with his Manhattan Wildlife Refuge 
> recordings.  I admit that I was  blown over by his playing on his Straight Life LP 
> and even more so in the  mid 70's with his Refuge recordings and his set of 
> small ensemble LP's that  followed that.  Today, I still listen to Watrous, and 
> I still buy his  recordings when they come out.  However, I am not completely 
>  blown over by his playing any more.  After listening to today's  top 
> symphonic players, I have raised my standards for jazz playing.  My  standard for 
> jazz players is that they have a full, harmonics-rich,  well-centered tone that 
> does not thin out even a little when going up to high  F's!  It can be done.  
> (I really cannot stand hearing the term  "velvety tone" which is just a nice 
> way of saying the tone is not full and rich,  especially when you get above high 
> C.)  Listen to Alessi's recording of a  Carmen Suite on his "Trombonastics" 
> CD to understand what upper register  trombone tone should sound like.  And 
> please do not give me that tired old  saw about there being different tones for 
> trombone.  Rubbish!  The  same tone that makes for a top classical trombonist 
> should be the tone for  a jazz trombonist.  There can be minor tonal shadings 
> used for both  classical and jazz trombone playing, depending on what you are 
> doing.   However, the same basic tone should be accomplished.   My  standard 
> for jazz players includes fast technical playing that is up  to the level of a 
> Christian Lindberg when playing the Winter Concerto from  Vivaldi's Fours 
> Seasons.  (Yes, I know that he recorded that on alto  trombone, but we are talking 
> fast technique now!)  My standard for  jazz trombone playing now includes lip 
> flexibility that allows for perfectly  controlled and clean lip trilling (not 
> shakes!!!) at the same level as those  classical players that I listed.  And 
> by the way, Jack Teagarden proved  that this was do-able in his 1944 beautiful 
> solo version of Sophisticated  Lady.  (After all, the standard of lip 
> flexibility in jazz set by Jack more  than 60 years ago still stands, or at least it 
> should.)  Don't  misunderstand me.  I do not want jazz transmutated into a  
> classical wannabe style.  (Ugh, that would be worse than all  those horrible 
> recordings by opera divas singing pop ballads!)  I just want  the same standard of 
> playing in jazz to be commonly held up that now  exists in the classical 
> arena.  There are some that are doing it, but  not as many as some might imagine 
> if they would take the time to really,  really listen to the great classical 
> players.  For instance, how  many jazz trombone enthusiasts today have actually 
> heard Ian  Bousfield's CD "The Versatile Virtuoso"?  It should be required 
> listening  for ANYONE who wants to claim to be knowledgeable in trombone playing, 
> whether  jazz, classical, or otherwise.  Bousfield's recording of "Rhapsody 
> For  Trombone and Brass Band" is one of the finest and emotionally satisfying  
> trombone recordings of any genre that I have ever heard.  (It also is a  
> heavily jazz-tinged piece with an extended improvised section.)  Now, to  another 
> issue raised by someone.  Is it necessary for all professional (or  
> non-professional) jazz trombonists to play with this level of technical  accomplishment?  
> OF COURSE NOT!!!   To even insinuate that is  just plain stupid.  However, 
> this IS the level of accomplishment that  should unswervingly be held up as the 
> standard by which trombone playing should  be measured.  And I do not think 
> that is being done in the jazz trombone  community today, at least to the extent 
> that it should be.  If a jazz  trombonist does not play at the highest level 
> of performance possible, should  people no longer enjoy his playing?  Of 
> course not.  As I mentioned, I  still listen to Watrous (and many, many others) and 
> I still enjoy his playing  even if I am no longer knocked over with scorched 
> eyebrows.  But we need to  always hold up the very highest standards as the 
> target for everyone to shoot  at.  And if we do not know what that target is, 
> how can we hold it  up?  How many jazz trombone enthusiasts actually buy and 
> listen to  recordings by the really great non-jazz trombonists that I mentioned 
> earlier in  this note? (And those names I gave were only a partial list.  I did 
> not  mention Ronald Barron, Ralph Sauer, Jay Freidman, etc, etc.)  Certainly  
> some do, but my experience tells me that it is not a large percentage.  The  
> condensation of what I am saying is simple:  I am absolutely convinced that  
> one of the reasons that the trombone is becoming less and less used in jazz  
> groups as anything other than back up sound, is the continued idiotic notion  
> that the trombone is a clumsy instrument that cannot do what tenor saxes can  
> do.  There is absolutely no reason for that notion, and all those who  continue 
> to think that way should be strapped to a chair and required to  listen to all 
> 50+ of Christian Lindberg's CDs, going back to his first one  cut in about 
> 1982!  And if they still don't get the message, then move on  to the CD's of 
> other great trombonists.  And if they start to cry and beg  you to stop force 
> feeding them classical trombone music, then put on Herb  Bruce's "Heaven and 
> Earth" CD and play his cut of the Tommy Dorsey masterpiece  "Trombonology".  Does 
> it sound like I am sick and tired of hearing  one shrill, honking tenor sax 
> solo after another?  Yes I  am.
>
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