[Dixielandjazz] Defining jazz "Was Jazz ever popular music?

[D and R Hardie]

Hi everybody.
                       Sadly, as Steve's contribution suggests it is 
difficult to define jazz in a way everybody agrees with.That's why the 
DJML gave up and adopted the term OKOM an acronym  that is highly 
personal and meaningless for communication except among the ingroup and 
even they often disagree.
                    Also, sadly, if we don't try to define terms we 
cannot communicate meaningfully. Definitions of jazz are also time 
sensitive.  As Charlie points out the ' jazz' of the 1920's popular 
culture included music later critics redefined as non jazz. (My father 
liked Ragtime Cowboy Joe - a tune originally a ragtime song that he 
played during  the Jazz Age.) That does not mean that the distinctions 
that were later made were not valid. Understanding jazz history means 
trying to interpret the distinctions in a meaningful way, and, to head 
off the anti historians - History is not bunk (or is it Bunk?). It can 
be helpful to our understanding of what and how we listen or perform.
regards
Dan Hardie
http://tinyurl.com/nqaup



On Saturday, January 13, 2007, at 02:38  AM, Steve Barbone wrote:

> Charles Suhor <csuhor at zebra.net> (polite snip)
>
>> I'm not sure if we're disagreeing, either, Rocky. I just don't know
>> what Ken Burns' researchers were counting as "jazz" in their report on
>> record sales. In those days, as I noted earlier, innumerable
>> ragtimey/pre-Mickey bands were working and recording and would almost
>> surely be catalogued as jazz.
>
> Good point as it relates from the 1920s to the 1930s. In fact, good 
> point as
> it relates to the 1990s and the 21st century. e.g.
>
> 1) Kenny G is classified, and judged by most people (who don't know any
>    better), as a "Jazz" musician.
>
> 2) Kenny G. has sold over 75 million albums.
>
> 3) Therefore Kenny G is the most popular jazz artist ever.
>
> Whoa, not so fast.
>
> Kenny G. does not consider himself a jazz player. Never has. He 
> considers
> himself to be a player of "instrumental pop" and has said so many 
> times.
> Those quotes from him are readily available in the media. Yet many 
> media
> hacks, as well as jazz musos like Pat Metheny keep judging him and 
> downing
> him, quite unfairly, as an inept "jazz" musician.
>
> Then again, ODJB's Margie with Palesteena on the flip side, was the 
> largest
> selling record of it's time. Back then (1920's) Jazz may have been the
> largest segment of popular music. But definitely not so in the 1930s.
>
> Then again, Duke Ellington was beyond category. He did not consider 
> his big
> band as a jazz band. The general public and media hacks are pretty much
> split on that issue also. Similar questions often arise about whether 
> or not
> the big bands of Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey and even Stan Kenton were
> playing "jazz".
>
> Conclusions? Very difficult to define jazz. Kenny Davern liked to say 
> it was
> like asking 10 different people "What does God look like. You get 10
> different answers. What is Jazz?", he'd continue, "Stupid question for 
> which
> there is no answer, only ceaseless argument."
>
> No wonder Pop's liked answer the question "What is Jazz" when asked by 
> a
> musician: "Jazz? It's what you are."
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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