[Dixielandjazz] Re: Vibrato (was: Bechet's Vibrato)
Stan Brager
sbrager at socal.rr.com
Sat Jun 11 10:29:10 PDT 2005
Larry;
A belated thanks for your excellent discussion of vibrato. By the way, a
trombonist has 3 kinds of vibrato - in addition to the 2 you mentioned,
there is also slide vibrato which is very commonly used. Jaw vibrato is not
quite as common. I don't know of any trombonist who uses diaphragm vibrato
but maybe this will bring someone out of the vibrato closet.
Stan
Stan Brager
Trombonist-in-Training
----- Original Message -----
From: "LARRY'S Signs and Large Format Printing" <sign.guy at charter.net>
To: "Patrick Cooke" <amazingbass at cox.net>; <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Bechet's Vibrato
> Vibrato has gone through several style changes over the years. It has
> ranged from the Minnie Mouse to nothing. In the 1940's depending on the
> band the vibrato was wide and usually a medium fast, in unison and tended
to
> be continuous ala Glen Miller. Earlier vibrato tended to be rapid to very
> rapid like Minnie Mouse, Dolly Parton and most mountain singers. Then
there
> was the West Coast Jazz era Bud Shenk, Paul Desmond, here vibrato was
> virtually non existent.
>
> Vibrato is produced in several ways on woodwinds. Jaw vibrato and
Diaphragm
> vibrato or a combination of each. Actually a good player should be able
to
> slip between the two without detection. Jaw vibrato is an intonation
> vibrato while Diaphragm is one of intensity. Jaw vibrato tends to be
faster
> and can vary from shallow to wide. Diaphragm vibrato is the only way a
> flute can produce vibrato and is used by most Oboe players. Sax and
> clarinet players tend to use jaw vibrato because it's the most versatile
but
> diaphragm is best used for slow ballads (Polkadots and Moonbeams) etc.
>
> Today players use a variable approach to vibrato, that is, starting the
note
> straight and getting wider as the note lasts and may taper off too.
>
> It's just plain wrong to assume that players use vibrato to fix intonation
> problems although it does somewhat have that effect. Flat is still flat.
>
> There is a more practical reason why it's used and why so many clarinet
> players have poor tones on sax. If you were to hold a brick out at arm's
> length it wouldn't take long for the muscles to start screaming. The
reason
> for this is that the blood supply is cut off when a muscle contracts and
> after a while you start getting pain in that muscle. The arm muscle is a
> large muscle and the muscles in your lips chin and jaw are fairly weak and
> will cry out faster. What usually happens is that the player will relieve
> the muscle strain by biting. Guitar players must constantly flex their
left
> hand or else they get very and sometimes painfully tired in that hand.
You
> just can't simply grab on for dear life.
>
> By using a jaw vibrato (chewing on gum with the front teeth motion) the
> muscles are flexed and allows blood to flow in the lips and surrounding
> muscles thus lengthening and enhancing endurance. To do this the jaw is
> pulled down while the muscles support producing a superior tone. Of curse
> you can get that tone without vibrato but it produces a freer more
flexible
> tone and of course any intonation benefits you get are a plus. It does
this
> by getting the teeth away from the mouthpiece and requires flexible
support
> by the facial muscle structure especially the chin muscles. Another plus
is
> that the mouth cavity is more open.
>
> The other vibrato used by some singers is the thought vibrato. This is an
> absolute NO NO on instruments. It tightens the thought and restricts the
> air and oral cavity size. It sometimes produces sounds in the thought and
> is almost uncontrollable. Once a student starts this it's hard to get
them
> to stop.
>
> Unfortunately this is not a skill taught to clarinet players. The reason
> for this is that most judges in High school music contests are not
tolerant
> of vibrato in the classical setting. High school band directors don't
teach
> it because you would have to teach section vibrato or only teach it to
> soloists so they simply don't. So what happens is the kids clamp on like
> snapping turtles thrusting their face and tongue forward which produces a
> pinched tight small sound which carries on into adult bands.
Unfortunately
> it carries over into saxophone playing that just is not tolerant of that
> kind of embouchure. This produces the Highschooly sound that you hear so
> often. The old school taught that you learn clarinet first then the sax
and
> that sax was easy. The problem is that Sax is an incredibly subtle
> instrument whereas the clarinet is one more of brute force getting tighter
> and tighter as you go higher.
>
> I think it depends on what you are going for. The classic clarinet sound
or
> the freer sax sound. I started on the sax and learned clarinet in high
> school. One time a guy told me that I sounded like a sax player on
> clarinet. He didn't mean it in a nice way but I have always regarded it
as
> an extreme compliment because I knew that what I was doing was right and
was
> exactly what I wanted.
>
> To be a well rounded woodwind player both techniques must be used and a
lot
> of junk has to be unlearned to produce good tone and intonation.
>
> Vibrato styles come and go but people like it and it gives a lot of warmth
> to the music. It also adds another dimension to the solo.
>
> Larry Walton
> St. Louis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick Cooke" <amazingbass at cox.net>
> To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 8:56 AM
> Subject: [Dixieland] Re: Bechet's Vibrato
>
>
> > Steve said:
> > > And some, like Bechet, used vibrato to good effect to
> > cover up the tuning problems. With his W I D E vibrato, part of the note
> was
> > bound to be in tune. :-) VBG.
> >
> > Thank you Steve...I always wondered why he used that terrible nanny-goat
> > vibrato. He had some gread ideas, but I had to mentally filter out the
> > vibrato to appreciate them.
> > Pat Cooke
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <dixielandjazz-request at ml.islandnet.com>
> > To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 10:20 PM
> > Subject: Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 30, Issue 27
> >
> >
> > > Send Dixielandjazz mailing list submissions to
> > > dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > dixielandjazz-request at ml.islandnet.com
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > dixielandjazz-owner at ml.islandnet.com
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of Dixielandjazz digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: Re: Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 30, Issue 19 (Charles Suhor)
> > > 2. Palm Court Jazz Cafe (Kathleen Edegran)
> > > 3. Re: DJ in Ont? (TCASHWIGG at aol.com)
> > > 4. Jazz Sunday, Sacramento Area (Robert S. Ringwald)
> > > 5. RE: Jan Sutherland contact info (Williams, Bob)
> > > 6. Re: Ken Colyer (Judy Eames)
> > > 7. STJS Jazz Sunday, Correction (Robert S. Ringwald)
> > > 8. RE: Sop Sax George Probert and Canal St. Blues (Bill Gunter)
> > > 9. Re: 'Flumpet'? (was 'Nuther dumb question) (David Livingston)
> > > 10. Re: 'Flumpet'? (was 'Nuther dumb question)
> > > (LARRY'S Signs and Large Format Printing)
> > > 11. CT Jazz (baglady4 at juno.com)
> > > 12. Re: Ukulele tuning for a whole set (Talegatorz at aol.com)
> > > 13. Re: Bechet on soprano sax (Mike C.)
> > > 14. Soprano sax vs. clarinet (Rick Knittel)
> > > 15. RE: Sop Sax George Probert and Canal St. Blues (Jim O'Briant)
> > > 16. Soprano Sax & Bechet (Steve barbone)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:27:07 -0500
> > > From: Charles Suhor <csuhor at zebra.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 30, Issue
> > > 19
> > > To: "Patrick Cooke" <amazingbass at cox.net>
> > > Cc: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > Message-ID: <0a088fea6e2375b4946e3e71c901ed1e at zebra.net>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> > >
> > > On Jun 9, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Patrick Cooke wrote:
> > >> Judy writes:
> > >>> Chris reckons that jazz in New Orleans has moved on
> > >>> since the days when Ken Colyer was there.
> > >>
> > >> I have to admit I don't know who Ken Colyer is/was, but I was
> > >> living California and Florida for about 45 years, and just returned
to
> > >> New Orleans 11 years ago. New Orleans has advanced to using PA
> > >> systems, and there are a few purists who even stay to listen when
> > >> there is more than one microphone in use. There are still a few smug
> > >> "elitists" who still would rather hear an out-of-tune acoustic piano
> > >> than an in-tune electronic one, even though the new keyboards can
> > >> sound like a concert grand. There are a few other silly notions
> > >> harbored by a few that make them feel they are above those of us who
> > >> live in a world of electric refrigerators, TV, computers, and
> > >> automatic transmissions.
> > >> But basically the music has survived and even advanced a little,
> > >> somewhat to the dismay of a few who feel that improvement is
> > >> impossible. Come to the French Quarter Festival.....It's mostly local
> > >> New Orleans musicians. They still play a lot of the old chestnuts,
> > >> but most of the musicianship is superb.
> > >> Pat Cooke
> > >
> > > English trumpeter Colyer was in N.O. in '52 or '53, just as the local
> > > popular revival of early & Dixieland jazz was starting to wind down. A
> > > noteworthy point about N.O. players "moving on" is that the
> > > international revival of the 40s and 50s took a very specialized form
> > > in the city. First generation black players were revived, some of them
> > > mainly to record on labels like American Music, a few (like Papa
> > > Celestin and George Lewis' bands) getting gigs and exposure. (Bunk
> > > rarely played in town.) Seasoned white players, mainly a little
younger
> > > (Sharkey Bonano's and Tony Almerico's bands), did very well.
> > >
> > > The point is that the younger players didn't emulate Oliver or the Red
> > > Hot Peppers. Nothing resembling Lu Watters, Turk Murphy, or Claude
> > > Luter, or the Firehouse Five. Tubas and banjos were seen as old or
> > > corny, or even commercial, suggesting minstrelsy. The fluidity and
> > > invention they were seeking weren't as easily achieved, the youngsters
> > > felt, with the insistence of a strummed banjo and the enforced "2"
> > > feeling of a tuba. And marching and brass bands were years from
getting
> > > the attention of young players.
> > >
> > > Most black and white kids were in fact attracted to modern jazz, many
> > > black youngsters to the new R&B as well. The was cultivated in the
city
> > > by a good number of white youngsters who took up the Dixieland style
> > > and "moved on" with it--Fountain, the Assunto brothers, George Girard,
> > > Roy Liberto, Connie Jones, Murphy Campo, Al McCrossen, Pee Wee
> > > Spitelera, Paul Ferrara, and others. Exceptions existed, of course.
Dr.
> > > John was a young white R&B comer. The Last Straws used a banjo but the
> > > band in its early incarnations wasn't taken seriously. Like many
> > > revivalist bands, they could "play hot," but they didn't swing.
> > >
> > > It was the largely the influx of young foreign musicians in the 60s
> > > that turned interest back to earliest jazz styles, instrumentation,
and
> > > repertoire. Many of them hung out with Preservation Hall veterans
after
> > > it opened in 1961. Lars Edergan, Barry Martyn, and others contributed
> > > greatly to this. (Tom Sancton was one of the few locals.) Danny Barker
> > > later worked to bring kids into marching bands, which also "moved" on,
> > > sometimes nicely, sometimes in R&B and other strange directions, and
> > > regressing at times to the glorification of arrested amateurism.
> > >
> > > The local jazz scene today is a very mixed bag, but updated Dixieland,
> > > though sometimes too facile, is often the most driving and interesting
> > > force. I don't get the N.O. that often, but typical bands I've heard
at
> > > the Palm Court are a good example. Musicians integrate many styles
into
> > > the ensembles and solos--listening to each other very well, often
> > > sounding very modern, all the while keeping the spirit of freewheeling
> > > Dixieland jazz. You can hear a lot of Clifford Brown in Leroy Jones'
> > > trumpet, Ray Brown in Bill Huntington's bass, etc. It's good, deep,
> > > feelingful jazz. Another way of saying that: it's to my taste!
> > >
> > > Charlie Suhor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:54:10 -0500
> > > From: "Kathleen Edegran" <edegran at earthlink.net>
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Palm Court Jazz Cafe
> > > To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Message-ID: <00ac01c56bc4$9507b700$0a0110ac at 51a8m>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> > >
> > > Hello:
> > > Dick Redmond suggested I contact you regarding being on your listings
> for
> > > jazz clubs.
> > > Palm Court Jazz Cafe is located at 1204 Decatur Street, New Orleans,
LA
> > > 70116 phone 50-525-0200 fax 523-2629. web site
> www.palmcourtjazzcafe.com
> > > We are open wednesday thru sunday from 7p-11p for fine dining and live
> > > traditional jazz. We have 6 piece jazz bands with some of the best
> > > traditional musicians in the world. Guests can dine whilst enjoying
the
> > > music.
> > > Please contact me if you need any further information.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Kathy Edegran.
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:47:07 EDT
> > > From: TCASHWIGG at aol.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] DJ in Ont?
> > > To: johnbird at sympatico.ca, dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > Message-ID: <105.62a81861.2fda20eb at aol.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> > >
> > > In a message dated 6/9/05 2:45:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > johnbird at sympatico.ca writes:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Just wondering if anyone can recommend where I mighe find some DJ
music
> > >> in
> > >> south central Ontario, particularly the Peterborough/Lindsay area,
but
> > >> also in
> > >> Mecca, I mean Toronto.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> John (aka Ukulele Shoni in Bobcaygeon)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > Well John:
> > >
> > > If it's A DJ you are looking for, any Discotech will fill your needs,
> The
> > > DJ
> > > word is not acceptable on this list, as it translates to NO LIVE MUSIC
> > > PLAYED
> > > HERE. :))
> > >
> > > However if it is actually Dixieland Jazz that you are looking for I am
> > > certain one or more of our good buddies on the list in that area can
> give
> > > you the
> > > names of some good places to go.
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Tom Wiggins
> > >
> > > Save live music, Kill a DJ a Day,
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:39:30 -0700
> > > From: "Robert S. Ringwald" <robert at ringwald.com>
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Jazz Sunday, Sacramento Area
> > > To: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Message-ID: <039a01c56d45$838500f0$5702fea9 at laptop1>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > > reply-type=original
> > >
> > > You are invited to the Sacramento Traditional Jazz Society's jazz
Sunday
> > > concert, June 12, 2005, noon - 5:00 PM.
> > >
> > > Where? At the Dante Club,
> > > 2330 Fair Oaks Blvd., Sacramento, CA.
> > >
> > > Be aware that there is overflow parking next door at McDonalds.
> > >
> > > Our featured guest star will be the Australian born clarinet and sax
> > > player,
> > > Anita Thomas. Anita has recently moved to the Southern California
area
> > > and
> > > is making quite a name for herself. She is a wonderful, hot player.
> > >
> > > Anita will be featured on 2 sets on the Main stage, with some of
> > > Sacramento's finest musicians.
> > >
> > > There will be jazz in 3 rooms all day long.
> > >
> > > For more information, see http://www.sacjazz.com
> > >
> > > --Bob Ringwald K6YBV
> > > Placerville, CA USA
> > >
> > > "There are three kinds of men:
> > > The ones that learn by reading.
> > > The few who learn by observation.
> > > The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for
> > > themselves."
> > > --William Penn Adair (Will) Rogers B: 11/4/1879 D: 8/15/1935
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 5
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:47:32 -0700
> > > From: "Williams, Bob" <robert.c.williams at eds.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [Dixielandjazz] Jan Sutherland contact info
> > > To: "Williams, Bob" <robert.c.williams at eds.com>, "DJML"
> > > <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <B670522B05B4244A81F51799CF0EC820D64A64 at ussam232.amer.corp.eds.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > I think I have the information I need. Thanks to all who responded,
and
> > > to those who were thinking about it.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com
> > > [mailto:dixielandjazz-bounces at ml.islandnet.com] On Behalf Of Williams,
> > > Bob
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 1:42 PM
> > > To: DJML
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Jan Sutherland contact info
> > >
> > >
> > > Someone has asked me how to get Jan Sutherland CDs. Does anyone know
if
> > > she has a website or email address?
> > >
> > > Barring that, can someone give me her phone number offline?
> > >
> > > Bob Williams
> > > Trombonist Extraordinaire and
> > > The Worlds's Most Modest Man
> > > mailto:slushpump1 at comcast.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > > Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 6
> > > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:02:39 +0100
> > > From: "Judy Eames" <jude at judyeames.co.uk>
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Ken Colyer
> > > To: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Message-ID: <005601c56d48$113201d0$a300a8c0 at Jude>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > Pat Cooke doesn't know who Ken Colyer was...... well sort of England's
> > > answer to California's Turk Murphy except he played trumpet He died
> some
> > > time ago but still has become a saint of English jazz, partly because
he
> > > spent time in New Orleans ...... There is still a band calling itself
> the
> > > Ken Colyer Trust. I have to state my bias, I heard him play
frequently
> in
> > > the late 70s/early 80s in London and couldn't understand what all the
> fuss
> > > was about but hell what does a singer know? He was not a person to
> > > project
> > > his personality, never said a word to the audience and when a good
> friend
> > > of
> > > mine subbed with the band, Ken didn't say a word to him all evening.
> > >
> > > Jude
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > as Judy Eames
> > > Kaminsky Connection
> > > Aston, Oxfordshire
> > > UK
> > > www.judyeames.co.uk
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Patrick Cooke" <amazingbass at cox.net>
> > > To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:38 PM
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 30, Issue 19
> > >
> > >
> > >> Judy writes:
> > >>
> > >> >The thing that I find irritating in the UK is that so many festivals
> > > devote
> > >> >themselves to what we here call "New Orleans" music and disdain
> > >> >anything
> > >> >else.
> > >>
> > >> Many of the festivals in the U.S. do the same thing. Sometimes
I
> > >> think all the musicians at a festival get on the same plane and go to
> the
> > >> next festival......and play the same tunes the same way we've all
heard
> > > them
> > >> a thousand times before. The "all stars", I find are particularly
> guilty
> > > of
> > >> this, in their desire to "play something we all know". I know they
are
> > >> extremely capable of playing something different. I would not like
to
> > > hear
> > >> the same tune more than three times in one day.
> > >> If you want to hear something that is a little more creative,
you
> > >> almost have to go to a different kind of festival. Some of the
"trad"
> > >> festivals seem to hire a few token "all stars" in a half-hearted
> attempt
> > > at
> > >> a more varied line-up, but they're still basically trad festivals.
> > >>
> > >> >Chris reckons that jazz in New Orleans has moved on
> > >> > since the days when Ken Colyer was there.
> > >>
> > >> I have to admit I don't know who Ken Colyer is/was, but I was
> living
> > >> California and Florida for about 45 years, and just returned to New
> > > Orleans
> > >> 11 years ago. New Orleans has advanced to using PA systems, and
there
> > >> are
> > > a
> > >> few purists who even stay to listen when there is more than one
> > >> microphone
> > >> in use. There are still a few smug "elitists" who still would rather
> > >> hear
> > >> an out-of-tune acoustic piano than an in-tune electronic one, even
> though
> > >> the new keyboards can sound like a concert grand. There are a few
> other
> > >> silly notions harbored by a few that make them feel they are above
> those
> > > of
> > >> us who live in a world of electric refrigerators, TV, computers, and
> > >> automatic transmissions.
> > >> But basically the music has survived and even advanced a little,
> > >> somewhat to the dismay of a few who feel that improvement is
> impossible.
> > >> Come to the French Quarter Festival.....It's mostly local New
> Orleans
> > >> musicians. They still play a lot of the old chestnuts, but most of
the
> > >> musicianship is superb.
> > >> Pat Cooke
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > Message: 13
> > >> > Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:01:14 +0100
> > >> > From: "Judy Eames" <jude at judyeames.co.uk>
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Lurkers reacting.... and does size
> really
> > >> > matter:-)
> > >> > To: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > >> > Message-ID: <002b01c56c19$64515080$a300a8c0 at Jude>
> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >> >
> > >> > Cees Van Heuvel thinks he's got problems with negative reaction to
> > >> > postings
> > >> > about Jazz in Holland just imagine being English, a singer and
female
> > >> > on
> > >> > this list:-)
> > >> >
> > >> > Those Americans who do make it to Europe are usually surprised at
the
> > >> > quality of some of our bands; not something that can always be
> captured
> > > in
> > >> > recording.
> > >> >
> > >> > The thing that I find irritating in the UK is that so many
festivals
> > >> > devote
> > >> > themselves to what we here call "New Orleans" music and disdain
> > > anything
> > >> > else. I love the music when it's played well but it can become very
> > > solemn
> > >> > (some) musicians of the genre take themselves far too seriously.
> > >> >
> > >> > Last year I was asked to arrange a gig with Chris Burke and Les
> Muscutt
> > >> > from
> > >> > New Orleans. I was dreading a restricted diet of blues and gospel
> (Oh
> > > I
> > >> > forgot to mention my 4th listy drawback, I'm an atheist) BUT we and
> the
> > >> > audience had a wonderful time and Chris and Les knew the songs from
> Lee
> > >> > Wiley's repertoire. Chris reckons that jazz in New Orleans has
moved
> > >> > on
> > >> > since the days when Ken Colyer was there.
> > >> >
> > >> > So my question is do other countries/areas have a dominant
> (fossilised)
> > >> > form
> > >> > of the music? .
> > >> >
> > >> > As to size .... it was an allusion to Uncle Bob's strange ambition
> for
> > > the
> > >> > list, (just imagine 500 people posting every day) and also an
> > >> > invitation
> > >> > to
> > >> > some off-topic banter that will send him apoplectic:-)
> > >> >
> > >> > Judy Eames
> > >> > Kaminsky Connection
> > >> > Big Bear Stompers
> > >> > Aston, Oxfordshire
> > >> > UK
> > >> > www.judyeames.co.uk
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Message: 14
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > >> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > >> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 7
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:02:33 -0700
> > > From: "Robert S. Ringwald" <robert at ringwald.com>
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] STJS Jazz Sunday, Correction
> > > To: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Message-ID: <043801c56d48$24cdd7f0$5702fea9 at laptop1>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > > reply-type=original
> > >
> > > The correct URL for the Sacramento Traditional Jazz Society is
> > > http://www.sacjazz.org not .com
> > >
> > >
> > > --Bob Ringwald K6YBV
> > > Placerville, CA USA
> > >
> > > "There are three kinds of men:
> > > The ones that learn by reading.
> > > The few who learn by observation.
> > > The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for
> > > themselves."
> > > --William Penn Adair (Will) Rogers B: 11/4/1879 D: 8/15/1935
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 8
> > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:12:26 +0000
> > > From: "Bill Gunter" <jazzboard at hotmail.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [Dixielandjazz] Sop Sax George Probert and Canal St.
> > > Blues
> > > To: Artwoo at aol.com, dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > Message-ID: <BAY17-F10BE8442FEA3BBF54EA0D5BEFC0 at phx.gbl>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> > >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Art Wood writes (regarding Probert's Soprano Sax):
> > >
> > >>Hi: I invite anyone who has an aversion to the Sop Sax to listen to
> George
> > >>Probert's version of Canal St Blues on track 4 of "Firehouse Five +2"
> > >>Dixieland
> > >>Favorites.
> > >>
> > >>His solo starts out with a pianissimo plaintive cry and tells a sad
> > >>story...no fish-horn blats here. Listen and become a convert.
> > >
> > > As a matter of fact, at the jazz festival in Chilliwack, B.C. last
> month,
> > > Probert and his sax played that very same song (Canal St. Blues) with
us
> > > (Cell Block 7). It was the second time he has done so. The first time
> was
> > > at
> > > the Sacramento Jazz Jubilee a couple of years ago.
> > >
> > > It was a "musical moment" for me which I'll remember for a long time.
> > >
> > > In Chilliwack there was a member of the audience who came up to the
band
> > > stand while I was introducing George and talking about his recording
on
> > > the
> > > old Firehouse Five + 2 LP and he had that very same LP in his hand. He
> had
> > > brought it along knowing Probert was going to be with us and he wanted
> to
> > > get it autographed.
> > >
> > > I pointed it out to George in the course of my introduction and George
> > > yelled out "Well, hell - why don't we just play the record!" We had a
> > > good
> > > laugh and then we proceded to play Canal Street which once again
brought
> > > George and the band a standing "O" -
> > >
> > > It was great fun!
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Bill Gunter
> > > jazzboard at hotmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 9
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:19:14 -0700 (PDT)
> > > From: David Livingston <snargi01 at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] 'Flumpet'? (was 'Nuther dumb question)
> > > To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > Message-ID: <20050609231914.14079.qmail at web80213.mail.yahoo.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > >
> > > You are correct. A flumpet is a somewhat of a cross
> > > between a trumpet and a flugelhorn. It has the warmth
> > > of a flugelhorn with the projection of a trumpet. It
> > > is made by Dave Monette http://www.monette.net and
> > > will only cost you about $10,000. ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > David (doesn't play on a Monette) Livingston
> > > Dixieland Gumbo Internet Radio
> > > The BEST place on the web to hear Traditional Jazz
> > >
> > > To inquire about getting your band on the station
> > > contact Dave at snargi at dixielandgumbo.com
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Aad Overeem <aad.overeem at wanadoo.nl> wrote:
> > >> What a list, I almost every day learn something!
> > >>
> > >> Some time ago I learned that the great late Art
> > >> Farmer played a "Flumpet"
> > >> and IMHO he had a nice 'warm' sound on it, somewhat
> > >> like a Flugelhorn.
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps some expert can explain me what a "Flumpet"
> > >> is? Perhaps sort of a
> > >> cross between a Flugelhorn and a Trumpet?
> > >>
> > >> Aad Overeem
> > >> Netherlands
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://www.hammerfieldstompers.nl
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "LARRY'S Signs and Large Format Printing"
> > >> <sign.guy at charter.net>
> > >> To: <johnbird at sympatico.ca>;
> > >> <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:01 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] 'Nuther dumb question
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > snip:
> > >> > > Now I have another silly question, but what
> > >> better place to get a good
> > >> > answer. What I'm wondering is how trumpet and
> > >> cornet differ from one
> > >> > another, and why might one prefer one instrument
> > >> over the other? Anyone
> > >> care
> > >> > to jump in?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Cornet is a conical bore instrument, that is it
> > >> starts out small and
> > >> > gradually gets larger like a sax. the trumpet is
> > >> a straight bore and it
> > >> > stays essentially the same size until it gets to
> > >> the last crook just
> > >> before
> > >> > the bell. The sound of a cornet is more mellow
> > >> and has less projection.
> > >> I
> > >> > personally prefer the cornet to the trumpet.
> > >> Trumpets are usually used in
> > >> > orchestras whereas bands starting with Sousa uses
> > >> cornets. However having
> > >> > said that kids will almost always select the
> > >> trumpet over the cornet. The
> > >> > cornet is easier to hold in a horizontal position
> > >> because the elbows can
> > >> be
> > >> > held closer to the body and is more restful.
> > >> Since cornets were used in
> > >> > bands (military and other) around the turn of the
> > >> century they became a
> > >> part
> > >> > of the Dixie band and is usually used today in
> > >> trad bands.
> > >> >
> > >> > The flugelhorn (sp?) is a conical instrument and
> > >> produces a very mellow
> > >> tone
> > >> > but little projection. If I were king of the
> > >> world you would need a
> > >> special
> > >> > permit to play trumpets. That's personal
> > >> preference. I find the
> > >> flugelhorn
> > >> > to be a very cool instrument. This horn was
> > >> actually outlawed during WWI
> > >> by
> > >> > General Pershing. He would have no German
> > >> instruments in his bands. The
> > >> > rest of the country followed suit and the
> > >> instrument fell out of favor
> > >> until
> > >> > jazz players re-discovered it. You still won't
> > >> find them in American
> > >> > concert bands, however, English brass bands use a
> > >> flugelhorns as part of
> > >> > their standard instrumentation to our loss.
> > >> >
> > >> > Larry Walton
> > >> > St. Louis
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > >> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > >>
> > > http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 10
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:59:43 -0500
> > > From: "LARRY'S Signs and Large Format Printing" <sign.guy at charter.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] 'Flumpet'? (was 'Nuther dumb question)
> > > To: "David Livingston" <snargi01 at yahoo.com>,
> > > <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Message-ID: <002701c56d4f$51bb4ac0$64edd918 at gateway2000>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > Some people call them cornets
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Livingston" <snargi01 at yahoo.com>
> > > To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 6:19 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] 'Flumpet'? (was 'Nuther dumb question)
> > >
> > >
> > >> You are correct. A flumpet is a somewhat of a cross
> > >> between a trumpet and a flugelhorn. It has the warmth
> > >> of a flugelhorn with the projection of a trumpet. It
> > >> is made by Dave Monette http://www.monette.net and
> > >> will only cost you about $10,000. ;)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> David (doesn't play on a Monette) Livingston
> > >> Dixieland Gumbo Internet Radio
> > >> The BEST place on the web to hear Traditional Jazz
> > >>
> > >> To inquire about getting your band on the station
> > >> contact Dave at snargi at dixielandgumbo.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- Aad Overeem <aad.overeem at wanadoo.nl> wrote:
> > >> > What a list, I almost every day learn something!
> > >> >
> > >> > Some time ago I learned that the great late Art
> > >> > Farmer played a "Flumpet"
> > >> > and IMHO he had a nice 'warm' sound on it, somewhat
> > >> > like a Flugelhorn.
> > >> >
> > >> > Perhaps some expert can explain me what a "Flumpet"
> > >> > is? Perhaps sort of a
> > >> > cross between a Flugelhorn and a Trumpet?
> > >> >
> > >> > Aad Overeem
> > >> > Netherlands
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > http://www.hammerfieldstompers.nl
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: "LARRY'S Signs and Large Format Printing"
> > >> > <sign.guy at charter.net>
> > >> > To: <johnbird at sympatico.ca>;
> > >> > <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > >> > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:01 PM
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] 'Nuther dumb question
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > snip:
> > >> > > > Now I have another silly question, but what
> > >> > better place to get a good
> > >> > > answer. What I'm wondering is how trumpet and
> > >> > cornet differ from one
> > >> > > another, and why might one prefer one instrument
> > >> > over the other? Anyone
> > >> > care
> > >> > > to jump in?
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Cornet is a conical bore instrument, that is it
> > >> > starts out small and
> > >> > > gradually gets larger like a sax. the trumpet is
> > >> > a straight bore and it
> > >> > > stays essentially the same size until it gets to
> > >> > the last crook just
> > >> > before
> > >> > > the bell. The sound of a cornet is more mellow
> > >> > and has less projection.
> > >> > I
> > >> > > personally prefer the cornet to the trumpet.
> > >> > Trumpets are usually used in
> > >> > > orchestras whereas bands starting with Sousa uses
> > >> > cornets. However having
> > >> > > said that kids will almost always select the
> > >> > trumpet over the cornet. The
> > >> > > cornet is easier to hold in a horizontal position
> > >> > because the elbows can
> > >> > be
> > >> > > held closer to the body and is more restful.
> > >> > Since cornets were used in
> > >> > > bands (military and other) around the turn of the
> > >> > century they became a
> > >> > part
> > >> > > of the Dixie band and is usually used today in
> > >> > trad bands.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The flugelhorn (sp?) is a conical instrument and
> > >> > produces a very mellow
> > >> > tone
> > >> > > but little projection. If I were king of the
> > >> > world you would need a
> > >> > special
> > >> > > permit to play trumpets. That's personal
> > >> > preference. I find the
> > >> > flugelhorn
> > >> > > to be a very cool instrument. This horn was
> > >> > actually outlawed during WWI
> > >> > by
> > >> > > General Pershing. He would have no German
> > >> > instruments in his bands. The
> > >> > > rest of the country followed suit and the
> > >> > instrument fell out of favor
> > >> > until
> > >> > > jazz players re-discovered it. You still won't
> > >> > find them in American
> > >> > > concert bands, however, English brass bands use a
> > >> > flugelhorns as part of
> > >> > > their standard instrumentation to our loss.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Larry Walton
> > >> > > St. Louis
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > >> > Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > >> >
> > >> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > >> Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > >> http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 11
> > > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:39:51 GMT
> > > From: "baglady4 at juno.com" <baglady4 at juno.com>
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] CT Jazz
> > > To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > Message-ID: <20050609.174019.4600.35517 at webmail28.lax.untd.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain
> > >
> > >
> > > Listers:
> > >
> > > Curious to find out how many DJMLers plan to attend either Hot Steamed
> > > Jazz in Essex, Ct (June 24, 25 & 26) and/or Greater CT Jazzfest in
> Moodus,
> > > Ct (July 29, 30 & 31st)?
> > >
> > > Response off-list probably best idea.
> > >
> > > Thanks....Nancie Beaven
> > > Bloomfield, NJ
> > > (Professional OKOM Appreciator)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 12
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:49:08 EDT
> > > From: Talegatorz at aol.com
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Re: Ukulele tuning for a whole set
> > > To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > Message-ID: <80.2968836c.2fda4b94 at aol.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> > >
> > > Yes, there is nothing worse than an out of tune uke, but keeping a uke
> in
> > > tune for a whole gig is no great challenge.
> > > Buy a quality uke, one that is strait and solid.
> > > Use quality strings, (I like Aquila though I'm going to try the Worth
> > > Fluorocarbon).
> > > Inexpensive peg tuners are problematic and can loosen or be stiff.
> Replace
> > > with quality pegs or get a uke set up with decent geared tuners.
> > > Stretch and break in nylon strings properly. They will stretch out for
> > > many
> > > days, so be patient.
> > > Use an electronic tuner.
> > >
> > > Gus Bloch
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 13
> > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:16:45 -0600
> > > From: "Mike C." <mike at michaelcryer.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Bechet on soprano sax
> > > To: Dixieland Jazz <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Message-ID: <42A8F80D.6020400 at michaelcryer.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> > >
> > > I've heard that the curved neck works really well for bossa nova
music.
> > > At least that's what a soprano player told me.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > The curved horn looks like a toy and it's almost impossible to get a
> > >> stand for one. I do note that there is a slight tonal difference
with
> a
> > >> curved neck vs. a straight.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 14
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 22:18:46 -0400
> > > From: Rick Knittel <knittelsportland at juno.com>
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Soprano sax vs. clarinet
> > > To: dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > Message-ID: <20050609.221846.1336.0.knittelsportland at juno.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > >
> > >
> > > I am surprised no one has mentioned Bob Wilbur (sp?) regarding the
> > > soprano sax. He and Sidney Bechet were like father & son and were
often
> > > referred to as Bat & Shay. IMHO Wilbur plays a terrific sounding
curved
> > > soprano sax.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rick Knittel - JAZZBONE
> > > 37 Ship Channel Road; South Portland, Maine 04106-5136
> > > Bus phone; (207)-741-2407; fax 2409; Cell: (207)-233-3480; Home;
> > > (207)-799-6382
> > > E-mail; Knittelsportland at juno.com; Winter Office; 7657 Bergamo Ave;
> > > Sarasota, FL 34238-4765; Phone/Fax; (941)-924-5186
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 15
> > > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:14:13 -0700
> > > From: "Jim O'Briant" <jobriant at garlic.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [Dixielandjazz] Sop Sax George Probert and Canal St.
> > > Blues
> > > To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Message-ID: <20050610031422.0D05131B1 at sequoia.garlic.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> > >
> > > Art Wood wrote, in part:
> > >
> > >> Hi: I invite anyone who has an aversion to the Sop Sax
> > >> to listen to George Probert's version of Canal St Blues
> > >> on track 4 of "Firehouse Five +2" Dixieland Favorites.
> > >
> > >> His solo starts out with a pianissimo plaintive cry and
> > >> tells a sad story...no fish-horn blats here. Listen and
> > >> become a convert.
> > >
> > > I didn't hear that particular tune, but I heard George Probert for the
> > > first
> > > time at Sacramento this year. For a fellow who claims he doesn't know
> any
> > > tunes, he sure plays good. I've ordered some CD reissues of the
> Firehouse
> > > 5+2 to hear more.
> > >
> > > Jim O'Briant
> > > Tuba
> > > Gilroy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 16
> > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:20:34 -0400
> > > From: Steve barbone <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
> > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Soprano Sax & Bechet
> > > To: DJML <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Message-ID: <BECE7F42.2AD7%barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> > >
> > > Someone asked why a straight Soprano Sax? Probably because the
straight
> > > horn
> > > is sooooo much sexier. Bechet was a master at using his as a chick
> magnet.
> > > He would see a gal looking at him, make eye contact and then point the
> > > horn
> > > at her abdomen. He would then weave it around, up and down, while
> wailing.
> > > Worked every time as the gals would start to weave and dance about. He
> > > would
> > > then chat up the gal on break.
> > >
> > > I just got back from our Casino gig where we get lots of interaction
> with
> > > the audience. I admit to doing the same thing with my clarinet. It
gets
> > > the
> > > ladies moving, grinding and dancing about also. We had a group of
about
> a
> > > dozen gals, mixed races, dancing about to the clarinet solo today
which
> > > just
> > > about broke everybody up. Sure puts to rest those myths about "no
> audience
> > > for OKOM", or "Black & Hispanics don't dig Dixieland / New Orleans
> Jazz".
> > >
> > > Also, intonation on Bechet's Sax was a bastard. All those early
straight
> > > horns were IMPOSSIBLY out of tune. You had a choice, either the upper
> > > register was correctly tuned, or the lower register was. In either
case,
> > > the
> > > opposite register was completely out of tune. When you bought a Sop
Sax
> > > back
> > > then, you would specify which register you wanted correctly pitched
and
> > > they
> > > would supply the requisite horn.
> > >
> > > Some guys compensated by adjusting the mouthpiece so that both
registers
> > > were out of tune. And some, like Bechet, used vibrato to good effect
to
> > > cover up the tuning problems. With his W I D E vibrato, part of the
note
> > > was
> > > bound to be in tune. :-) VBG.
> > >
> > > Even today, just about all clarinets are slightly out of tune up and
> down
> > > the horn. Players automatically compensate with their chops to cover
the
> > > deficiencies. This was brought home to me this week when I put my wide
> > > bore
> > > Selmer 10G in the shop for air leaks and took out my trusty 60 year
old
> > > narrower bore Buffet. First thing the guitarist, who has excellent
ears,
> > > said was: "Hey, that horn is a little out of tune with itself." But by
> the
> > > second gig, he also noticed that I had corrected it with changes of
> > > embouchure.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Steve Barbone
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > > Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > > http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
> > >
> > >
> > > End of Dixielandjazz Digest, Vol 30, Issue 27
> > > *********************************************
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dixielandjazz mailing list
> > Dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com
> > http://ml.islandnet.com/mailman/listinfo/dixielandjazz
>
>
>
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