[Dixielandjazz] Dixieland before ragtime? / some reflections

[Charles Suhor]

Dab Hardie's two books, EXPLORING EARLY JAZZ and THE ANCESTRY OF JAZZ, 
deal with these questions in detail. Gunther Shuller's EARLY JAZZ is a 
classic source. Also, good quick-gloss answers are found in the New 
Grove Dictionary of jazz under "Dixieland," "Ragtime," "New Orleans 
jazz," "Traditional Jazz," etc. the Grove writers are generally good 
researchers with a wide view of jazz history.

Charlie Suhor


On Jan 24, 2005, at 8:02 PM, Richard Broadie wrote:

> Having played with Johnny St. Cyr, Ed "Montudie" Garland and others 
> from that first generation, I can't tell you if their music was 
> labeled Dixieland or not, but I know it was performed before the 
> Original Dixieland Jazz Band started playing "white" jazz.  I would 
> argue the Blacks were first to play what we would call jazz, citing 
> Buddy Bolden and others who predate the art of recording much other 
> than "Mary had a little lamb."   If the principle question is 
> Dixieland before ragtime, the answer is it was the other way around, 
> with Cakewalk dancing on riverboats to ragtime syncopations predated 
> anything labeled jazz.
>
> In earlier posts several years ago, I claimed to be 125 years old and 
> that I recorded with Buddy Bolden,  a fiction that entertained many, 
> and actually fooled a couple of literal interpreters of my comedy.  I 
> can say that nearly 125 years ago, my grandfather, Herbert H. Broadie, 
> would close down his drugstore in Waverly Iowa, pick up his tambourine 
> (which I still have) and become Mr. Interlocutor on the Mississippi 
> Riverboats.   My dad, while in his teens remembered dancing to Fate 
> Marabel's band on the riverboat.  It was with this band that Louis 
> Armstrong left New Orleans ending up in Chicago.
>
> I'm fascinated by the history and development of what is known as 
> jazz. While not an expert historian, its fun to realize that I was 
> blessed to have known and played with some of the music's earliest 
> pioneers (at a time that they were my present age or older and I was 
> very young!).    I only wish that I'd not sitting at the bar with 
> Hoagy C. (in his Thunderbird Country Club home in Rancho Mirage, CA) 
> and Phil Harris the night they told me many stories about Bix, when 
> they both knew well.   When I got home the next day around noon, my 
> wife asked me what I'd learned about Bix and my response was "Bix 
> who?"  Those guys could drink and I couldn't.
>
> I wish I'd had a tape recorder years earlier when I spent evenings at 
> Barney Bigard's Inglewood, CA apartment  listening to early Ellington 
> recordings where Barney said things such as "At this point, Ellington 
> asked the reed players to trade parts with the brass players.  When we 
> played it his reaction was (to no one individual in particular) 
> 'There, now wasn't that better?'  The band then recorded the "new" 
> version...."
>
> Tomorrow, I'll get results from lab tests indicating if my cancer has 
> returned.  I'm in a plaintive, reflective mood at the moment.  Perhaps 
> I should try to share more memories with you  (flawed as they may be) 
> while I'm able.
>
> I'll try.
>
> Dick B
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <jazz_trombone at axint.net>
> To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:09 PM
> Subject: RE: [Dixielandjazz] Dixieland before ragtime?
>
>
>>  Blacks did invent blues. Blues essentially comes from field
>> hollers(working in the fields) and from spirituals. Many early blues
>> were sung acapella because you very well couldn't be harvesting cotton
>> while pickin' a guitar. Blues spoke of their despair of the life they
>> were forced into with no way out. While no one knows how old the blues
>> is, it can't be older than when the first black indentured servants
>> landed in jamestown, Virginia in 1619.
>>
>>  As far as dixieland goes, to the best of my knowledge it is a 
>> northern
>> term. I have no idea if it comes from blacks or whites but as far as 
>> the
>> musical style goes, I believe that it was invented by blacks as well. 
>> It
>> probably goes back to the days of the black brass bands.
>>
>> MB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ps.  I've heard it said that Blacks invented the blues and in the 
>>> same
>>> breath the speaker said "and whites invented dixieland."  I have no 
>>> idea
>>> whether or not any of this is true.
>>>
>>> BG
>>
>>
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>
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