[Dixielandjazz] Sam Morgan band, 4/4, solos, etc.

[Charles Suhor]

Brian and all--

Many of you have heard more early jazz and pre-jazz recordings than I have,
I'm sure, but in my limited experience, the 4/4 of Sam Morgan's rhythm
section was the exception to the dominant 2/4 except for slow-tempo tunes.

Brian is right on with comments about the '40s revival bands of Bunk and
many others going with 4/4 string bass and drums, but folks I knew
perceived that as the opposite of a return to the norm. By that time
everyone had heard and was affected by the dominant 4/4/ of the swing era.
I was listening to and playing with a lot to the bands in New Orleans
during that period, and the feeling among the musicians, even those who
were active in the 20s, was overwhelmingly that playing in 2 was "old
timey," as was having a tuba or banjo in the rhythm section (the brilliant
Lawrence Marrero nothwistanding). In the 60s, Preservation Hall and the
city's institutionalization of all things old changed all that, but that's
another story.

There was even some gentle scorn for the West Coast revivalist bands and
others in the 4os who were consciously resurrecting old styles and
instrumentation or even crossing the boundaries into corn in the name of
havin' a good ol' time. (Outside of New Orleans, Bobby Hackett remarked,
"It's certainly funny to hear those youngsters trying to play like old
men.")

There was of course some intolerance in those views but it went both ways.
Many of the local and national fig-purists bemoaned the scarcity of
two-beat rhythm and "authentic" instrumentation and could barely tolerate
Dixieland. Aside: Ironically, the old 2-beat was wretchedly imitated by
drummer Phil Zito, who was abandoned by his sidemen when they formed the
Basin Street Six. Further ironically, the group clowned a lot and sometimes
played circus tempos, and new drummer Charlie Duke rushed the beat. But the
group swung its rear off.

To get back to the main question, I'd like to hear more about inroads of
4/4 in early jazz, i.e., before the revivals that were surely polluted,
enriched, or simply affected (depending on your point of view) by the pulse
of the swing years.


Charlie Suhor



 >Charles and listmates,
>A few more thoughts.  Interesting that the 1940's  revival bands of Bunk
>Johnson, George Lewis, Kid Ory, Kid Thomas,  for example, usually went with
>the 4/4 string bass sound as the norm - similar to the New Orleans rhythms
>of Sam Morgan (circa 1927) . In spite of the fact that many of these guys
>had played regularly in the 2 beat parade bands in New Orleans.   Then a
>little later, many of the European traditional revival groups followed Bunk,
>Lewis & Co and enshrined that 4/4 bass sound, for example
>Barber/Bilk/Ball/Colyer/Lyttelton/Dutch Swing College/Papa Bue etc.  In the
>UK and Europe, this sound has always seemed to be more prevalent and more
>accepted than the brass bass, 2 beat sound.
>
>Then another set of revivalists followed the Oliver, Piron etc  New Orleans
>bands, with that two-beat brass bass sound, subsequently picked up by the
>great bands led by Watters/Murphy/Scobey/South Frisco/Yankee Rhythm Kings
>etc and a few European bands like early George Webb.    The 2 beat sound
>reigns supreme in North America, it seems to me, particularly on the West
>coast.   Also there are some great French bands who have developed that 2
>beat style - Charquet, Hot Antic etc.
>
>We all surely love a good solo - it is the icing on the cake but I believe
>the cake itself is the ensemble sound of the band.  It forms the foundation
>and inspiration for a good solo.   Louis' very simple solo over the Luis
>Russell band on his first recording of "Mahogany Hall Stomp" is a good
>example.  One long-held note from Louis sounds immensely exciting, because
>of the rhythm, changes and riffs being put out by the band behind him.
>Cheers,
>Brian Towers,
>Canada
>
>http://hotfivejazz@tripod,com (band web sites)
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Suhor" <csuhor at zebra.net>
>To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
>Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 12:40 PM
>Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Sam Morgan band, 4/4, solos, etc.
>
>
>> Brian & all--
>>
>> I often wonder about the Morgan band's 4-to-the-bar bass line. It seems
>> that the 2-beat wasn't merely what we associate with Dixieland but was by
>> far the norm in the earliest jazz, and Morgan's style was an interesting
>> departure rather than a  perfect prototype.
>>
>> Paul Barbarin said that he didn't hear 4/4 until his career was well
>> underway, and almost all others who recorded in the 20's, including the
>> jazz-influenced, mostly-reading bands on the "Jazz the World Forgot" and
>> "New Orleans in New Orleans" CDs, were doing oom-pah two-beat, often with
>a
>> tuba and under the continued influence of march music. The banjo often
>(but
>> not always) provided a contrasting 4/4 but the tuba or bass fiddle and
>> drums defined a feeling of "2" in the pulse.
>>
>> The Morgan tracks I've heard are for sure lusty, vigorous ensemble pieces
>> that are beautifully driven by the 4/4 bass. Wow, when the full drumset
>was
>> playing on site that must have been a powerful sound!
>>
>> I also wonder if the merited appreciation of early no-solo group improv
>> sometimes goes too far in the direction of devaluing the solo format that
>> developed around the 20s. I don't see that in Brian's message, but soloing
>> has been condemned by folks like Ralph Collins and Tom Bethell as
>> everything from egotism to chaos. Hey, things changed, solos happened,
>> Louis epitomized it, get over it. That didn't stink. Start a good
>> all-ensemble band of your own if you want to keep working in that form,
>and
>> we can enjoy that, too.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>> BRIAN TOWERS wrote:
>>
>> The rare Sam Morgan band recordings of 1927 represents a perfect 1920's
>New
>> Orleans styled jazz for many of us "hard-backed" traditionalists and here
>> are someof the reasons:
>> 1) The emphasis is on the ensemble sound, rather than the individual solo
>> and so there is always a flowing and polyphonic counterpoint.  It really
>is
>> a team effort - no stars but good all round musicians who understand the
>> art.
>> 2) The string bass focuses on a powerful  "four beats to the bar" style,
>> rather than the more familiar "two-beat" which we associate more with
>> dixieland jazz., though the bassist also does some occasional 2 beat
>bowing
>> from time to time....
>>
>>
>>
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