[Dixielandjazz] Recording Jazz (long -- delete if don't like tech talk)

[Robert S. Ringwald]

Paul et al:

The real trick is finding someone to operate the P.A. who doesn't have their
head up their a**.


Bob
mr.wonderful at ringwald.com
Placerville, CA, USA, Earth, Sol's System, Milky Way
Amateur (ham) Radio Station K6YBV
Fulton Street Jazz Band
See: http://www.ringwald.com
Boondockers Jazz & Comedy Band
See: http://www.theboondockers.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Edgerton, Paul A" <paul.edgerton at eds.com>
To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Dixielandjazz] Recording Jazz (long -- delete if don't like
tech talk)


> Bob Ringwald wrote:
> "If it is a 9 foot grand, even the drummer ends up 15 feet away."
>
> In his reply, Jim Kashishian said:
> "I have tried to point out that there can easily more than a  second of
> delay in the live sound from the other guys in the band."
>
> Ahem...
>
> Jim, I'm sure you realize that the speed of sound is roughly 1100f/s. To
> have a one-second delay the other instrument would have to 1100 feet away.
> If the drums are only 15 feet away, that's a delay of about 7
milliseconds.
>
> This is an example of the Haas Effect, which says that for delays less
than
> roughly 20 ms (the exact threshold varies among individuals) the delayed
> sound cannot be separated from the original. The ear hears it as one
sound.
> Delays of more than 20 ms become two distinct sounds.
>
> This is easy demonstrate: stand facing a hard surface (like a brick wall)
> and clap your hands. When you're 15 to 20 feet away from the wall you can
> hear a distinct echo. Now keep clapping and slowly walk toward the wall.
> When you get about from the wall, the echo will seem to disappear.
>
> Your hearing will merge sounds that fall within about 20ms into one sound.
> Sounds more than 20ms apart are perceived as being distinct sounds. That's
> why so-called early reflections sound good. (Think of a saxophone player
> warming up by playing into a wall.)
>
> You can do the same thing using a digital delay, except that if the
delayed
> signal is mixed with the original, you'll get comb filtering. But if you
pan
> the original signal to the left and the delayed signal to the right and
mix
> them at the same volume, then increase the delay time from the shortest
> available setting, first the apparent source will move from the center of
> the two speakers toward the right, or delayed side, getting wider and
wider
> until at 20ms the two signal seem to come unglued.
>
> So the problem of hearing the rest of the band is not caused by delay.
It's
> a different problem: masking. That's the tendency of the ear to be
> insensitive to softer sounds falling in the same frequency range as louder
> (or earlier) sounds.
>
> In Ringwald's example, he could probably hear the drums just fine -- as
long
> as he isn't playing. Then the sound from his piano would mask much of the
> sound coming from the distant and therefore softer drums. The cure for
this
> is, as you both have said, to move closer together or get the distant
sound
> source in your monitors.
>
> Back to Jim:
> "Without a full monitor mix, you can wander around the stage and you very
> well may have to decide who's rhythm you wish to stay with."
>
> The other solution is to stand halfway between the two. This won't help
the
> two widely-spaced guys, but at least you'll be getting a relatively normal
> balance between them with equal delays.
>
> I have expounded on the subject of PA systems before, but to summarize,
> there are three workable approaches:
>
> 1. Set everybody up close together and forget the PA. In small rooms this
> works very well, and I'll bet that when most of you rehearse, you don't
use
> a PA system, other than for vocals.
>
> 2. In a larger room, you have the problem that some of the instruments
> project much better than others and may need a little help. So you might
mic
> the piano and the clarinet and have the bass player use an amp. The brass
> and drums can usually hold their own in a setting like this. You're still
> going for a nearly acoustic sound.
>
> 3. In really big rooms, you're going to need to mic everything. This
> includes the drums -- though not necessarily the bass since he's probably
> using an amp. You'll also need monitors so you can tell how close to get
on
> the mics. The monitors don't need to be loud and don't even need to be
> full-range speakers, but they have a reasonable representation of the
total
> sound so that each player can hear his place in the mix. Since the bass
goes
> all over the place anyway, it's usually wise to leave it out of the
monitor
> mix.
>
> And for God's sake, once the monitors are set, don't change their mix
during
> a performance! Even a bad mix is more workable than a constantly changing
> balance.
>
> The idea here is to have the lowest possible volume on the stage. The
closer
> you can get to the sound of situation 1 above, the better the results will
> be.
>
> Also note that I'm only talking about sound from the musician's
perspective.
> The Balance needed for the house is a whole 'nother thing with its own
> special problems. The real trick is finding a setup that meets both sets
of
> needs.
>
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