[Dixielandjazz] Mostly Self Taught Musicians

Sun Sep 14 00:44:16 PDT 2003

Is a "trained" musician one who worked for Southern Pacific Railroad?   Just
wondering.  Dick
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stan Brager" <sbrager at socal.rr.com>
To: <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
Cc: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Mostly Self Taught Musicians


> Steve;
>
> Your statistics were certainly informative and while it behooves someone
who
> wants to go into music to immerse themselves in lots of study, how they
get
> that study done is an individual decision and depends upon the goals and
> personality of that individual.
>
> There are those who can get by some rudimentary beginning with someone who
> knows how to finger an instrument and take it from there to become first
> rate by immersing themselves in the business of making music. And, as you
> have stated, by asking others how such and such can be done and by taking
a
> lesson here and there. Certainly a method which lends itself to those
short
> on funds.
>
> Others can do it all by going to a succession of more and more advanced
> private teachers and schools - the expensive way.
>
> The rest get the training using some combination of the two extremes
above.
>
> For most musicians whom I've know, training is an on-going business with
> constant practice of those techniques and abilities which are difficult.
> This is what reedman Benny Waters said at age 90 - he still practiced but
it
> was on what was hard for him to play.
>
> So, really we're back to what you mean by the term "a trained musician".
> Does it pertain to the capabilities of the musician? or merely to where
> he/she learned the craft of making music? or the amount of time which was
> spent with formal teachers?
>
> Yet, the one thing which musicians must all have in common is the love,
the
> will, and the talent to make music.
>
> Stan
> Stan Brager
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Stephen Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
> To: "Stan Brager" <sbrager at socal.rr.com>
> Cc: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Mostly Self Taught Musicians
>
>
> > I agree, of course. We are looking at the issue from different
> perspectives. I
> > also note that roughly 25% of the principal chair musicians on all
> instruments
> > in the ranking US Symphony Orchestras are graduates of Curtis Institute
of
> > Music in Philadelphia. I would suspect that Julliard grads enjoy similar
> > positions. And, I have no argument with anyone who wants to believe that
> two of
> > years of instruction makes a man a "trained" musician. I just believe
that
> it
> > takes a hell of a lot more than that to be "trained" and that in Benny's
> case,
> > he did the rest on his own and is therefore "mostly self taught".
> >
> > His approach to playing the instrument was (according to him) changed in
> 1949
> > through a few lessons with Reginald Kell, so that foundation and
classical
> > technique he got from Schoep may not have been as strong as we might
> think.
> > Also, his tone had an edge to it which no classical players used. It was
> his
> > own and it was a jazz tone. His classical playing was OK, but no where
> near up
> > to that of Kell or other great classical clarinetists of the times.
> >
> > On the other hand, he was the King of Swing and earlier a wonderful hot
> jazz
> > player. He was the TOP GUN of "Jazz" clarinetists (as defined then by
the
> > audience). He did not learn that from two years of instruction from
> Schoep, or
> > a few lessons from Kell. He learned that on his own, certainly with some
> help
> > from his "lessons", but mostly on his own from listening, gigging and
self
> > practice. In short, paying his dues.
> >
> > Perhaps we are splitting fine hairs, but I see what he accomplished
"self
> > taught" as far greater that what he was taught. I also totally agree
with
> what
> > you write in your last paragraph. And Benny certainly had the musical
> ability.
> > Heck, he was in the union and gigging by age 14 and from that point on
he
> was
> > unstoppable. And from that point on, with few exceptions, he had no
formal
> > training.
> >
> > I wish music was that easy for the rest of us.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Steve Barbone
> >
> >
> >
> > Stan Brager wrote:
> >
> > > Steve;
> > >
> > > We seem to be splitting some fine hairs indeed. There is no doubt that
> > > Benny's first years were spent under the tutelage of some fine
teachers
> > > especially Franz Schoep. With Schoep, Benny got a strong foundation
for
> the
> > > clarinet. He learned the classical clarinet technique. He played the
> > > classical clarinet music and he performed classical duets. The
> foundation of
> > > his playing stems from this time.
> > >
> > > Certainly, he picked up jazz on his own - he had to - there were no
jazz
> > > classes. But, by this time, he had mastered the fundamentals. This
also
> gave
> > > him an edge when he left Ben Pollack's band to become a studio
musician.
> He
> > > was able to survive by his excellent reading abilities, his classical
> tone,
> > > and his approach to the music.
> > >
> > > It was these fundamentals which colored his music until the day he
died.
> > >
> > > For these reasons, I believe that he was truly a trained musician.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, having a music degree or studying music at Berklee,
> Juilliard,
> > > etc. indicates a trained musician. But when it comes to playing in the
> > > philharmonic or being a studio musician, success is predicated on
> musical
> > > ability and not a piece of paper.
> > >
> > > Stan
> > > Stan Brager
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Stephen Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
> > > To: "Stan Brager" <sbrager at socal.rr.com>
> > > Cc: "DJML" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 6:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Mostly Self Taught Musicians
> > >
> > > > Maybe, maybe not. Goodman got his first clarinet at age 10. He was
> taking
> > > > lessons from Schoep at age 11, and playing professionally at age 14.
> While
> > > > still in short pants, he was spending most of his time in
speakeasies
> and
> > > dance
> > > > halls listening to NORK, and King Oliver. Of course from time to
time
> he
> > > > studied with some of the greats, and yes, even Kell. But then, do we
> > > consider 2
> > > > years with Schoep from ages 11 to 13 as making him a "trained"
player?
> > > Even if
> > > > you add a few lessons from Kell later on?
> > > >
> > > > I spent similar time at similar ages learning to draw at The Art
> Student's
> > > > League in NYC. A very prestigious place with some very renown
> teachers.
> > > Yet I
> > > > would be very wrong to say I am a "trained" artist.
> > > >
> > > > Most of us in music for a living seek out advice from other players,
> > > teachers
> > > > from time to time. But that does not make us trained musicians.
> > > > As I see them trained musicians are the ones who go to Julliard,
> Curtis,
> > > > Berkelee, or Indiana University, or any University and study music,
or
> an
> > > > instrument. Or who have spent more than a couple of "teen:" years
> taking
> > > > lessons.
> > > >
> > > > I don't see Goodman as being in that category. I think he did most
of
> his
> > > > "learning" on his own.
> > > >
> > > > I see him like Bird, or Coltrane. Absorbing the music through his
ears
> and
> > > > practicing like a demon for many hours a day via scale and chord
> books, or
> > > > playing ALL the scales and ALL the chords time and again by ear.
That
> to
> > > me is
> > > > self taught, even if he asked Kell for a little help along the way.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Steve Barbone
> > > >
> > > > PS. One could also argue that Artie Shaw was "mostly self taught".
> Read
> > > his
> > > > autobiography; "The Trouble With Cinderella". (Got his first
saxophone
> at
> > > age
> > > > 12, was playing professionally at 15.). And he was the one who
figured
> out
> > > how
> > > > to finger and play the altissimo register on clarinet, all by
himself.
> > > >
> > > > Stan Brager wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I don't know about the other musicians you named, Steve, but Benny
> > > Goodman
> > > > > doesn't belong on the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > He began studying at a local synagogue where he was given his
first
> > > > > clarinet. When the synagogue stopped giving lessons, Benny's
father
> sent
> > > > > Benny and his older brothers to Hull House for additional lessons.
> While
> > > > > still a teen, Benny took lessons for 2 years with Franz Schoep who
> > > taught at
> > > > > the Chicago Conservatory of Music (among Schoep's pupils at the
same
> > > time
> > > > > were Jimmie Noone and Buster Bailey). Other teachers followed from
> time
> > > to
> > > > > time. One of more notable teachers (and a nod to our British
> listers)
> > > was
> > > > > clarinetist Reginald Kell.
> > > > >
> > > > > Throughout Benny's career, he sought out teachers who could
improve
> his
> > > > > playing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Stan
> > > > > Stan Brager
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Stephen Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
> > > > > To: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 10:35 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Mostly Self Taught Musicians
> > > > >
> > > > > > In an off list conversation with Warren Vache Sr, (One of the
> great
> > > jazz
> > > > > > players who knows more about the music than most of us) he
> suggested
> > > > > > that my short list of mostly self taught jazz musicians was "too
> > > short".
> > > > > > He is right and I bow to his wisdom. Said the maestro:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "I  think  your "short  list"  is a bit too  short.   How  about
> Jack
> > > > > > Teagarden,  Red Nichols, Frank Trumbauer,  Benny  Goodman,
Bobby
> > > > > > Hackett,  Bud Freeman---and a  few  hundred  others?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By the way, Vache Sr. leads the "Syncopatin Seven" jazz band
which
> is
> > > > > > excellent. How many of us have bought his CDs? Do it now as the
> band
> > > is
> > > > > > great and he is a giant of a player who should be recognized as
a
> > > > > > "National Treasure."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > Steve Barbone
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS. Yes, he is that old and he is the father of Warren Vache Jr,
> and
> > > > > > Allan Vache.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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