[Dixielandjazz] Re: Faster and higher than Louis

[Stephen Barbone]

Hi Jim: (and John Petters)

I agree with everything you say. I think you may misinterpret what I was
trying to convey, or maybe I said it badly.

Louis was the penultimate Jazz Figure of the 20th century, if not the
penultimate musical figure.

However, many trumpet players today, play better than he did as I hear
it from a technical standpoint. Some even have similar fire and feeling.
They express it differently as the concepts in jazz change

However, that does not mean they overshadow Louis' greatness. They
wouldn't be here today without Louis. Louis did it all first. The rest
merely build upon what he started.

Like you, the records I keep are of Louis. Heck we grew up with it. But,
by the same token I still listen to Clifford Brown, Roy Hargrove, Arturo
Sandoval and others. And I marvel at the legacy of Louis which is
evident in their playing.

Same for Ory and T, especially T, but that doesn't mean I don't also
marvel at J. J. Johnson, Kai Winding or Curtis Fuller, as well as Jim
Beebe.

Just that my tastes in Jazz include some of the more modern things,
though not all of them. And so I marvel at what Brown and Sandoval say
to me via
their horns.

Why do I think they are better trumpet players? For the following
reasons all of which contribute to some of the measurement, yet none
alone would be meaningful. Regarding Clifford Brown only:

1) He played higher. No matter what you conclude about the validity of
that as a measure, it was used in Louis' day to measure him v. Oliver,
Keppard et al.

2) He played faster. Same remark as above.

3) He played cleaner. Same remark as above.

4) He had more ideas. Here, to deny the genius of Clifford Brown's ideas
is simply not to understand his music. He thought in, and solo's
sometimes in 32 bar melodic lines. He thought in, and plays much more
complex harmonic structures. He thought and played in a jazz milieu of
greatly expanded musical conversation possibilities. And he played what
he thought flawlessly.

5) They have the same heart and soul. Clifford Brown's Soul is on every
record he ever made.

So, IMO he was a better trumpet player than Louis. However that does not
mean he was a "greater" player. No one, including me would deny that
Louis was the greatest trumpeter that ever played jazz. He was the
primary mover. The primary influencer.

Yes, Clifford Brown was a much better trumpet player, as are many today.
Face it folks, the conceptions of jazz, the breadth of the language, the
complexity, change very day. And the players get better and better. No
point living in denial.

Cheers,
Steve

Ps. What is really interesting in this thread is if we deny items 1 to 4
above and only consider #5, "soul", as the only real measure of who is
the best, then Preservation Hall is surely the Greatest Jazz Band in The
World. ;-)



JimDBB at aol.com wrote:

>    In a message dated 7/14/2003 10:09:05 AM Central Standard Time,
> barbonestreet at earthlink.net writes:
>
> > It should be no surprise to us that every trumpeter in Jazz today
> plays
> > better than Louis. Faster, cleaner, higher,
> > more ideas. We might as well get used to it. The point, of course is
> that
> > Louis innovated Jazz in the beginning. He is
> > THE FATHER. But you can bet the farm that he is proud of his sons
> who
> > surpass him.
>
>    I find it hard to believe that someone purporting to love jazz and
> to be a
> jazz musician actually made this statement.  I wonder why it is that
> as I
> wind my path down I am throwing out all of my recordings' except Louis
>
> Armstrongs.  All of the guys who can play faster and higher than Louis
> went first.
>
> What is in Louis's great recordings...Heart and soul.  Something that
> is
> totally missing in the 'higher and faster' recordings.
>
> I am rediscovering outstanding Armstrong recordings that I very much
> ignored.
>   For example, Louis singing, " That's for Me" with beautiful backup
> from
> Teagarden and Hines.