[Dixielandjazz] Traditional Jazz Drummings was tride vs. comp

Thu Jan 23 17:36:07 PST 2003

Baby was excellent allright - great examples are his sessions with Richard
M. Jones in 1944 and Sidney Bechet in 1940.

Zutty Singleton and Minor and Tubby Hall were in the same tradition.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	John Petters [SMTP:jpettjazz at btinternet.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:37 PM
> To:	Rob McCallum; David W. Littlefield
> Cc:	djml
> Subject:	Re: [Dixielandjazz] Traditional Jazz Drummings was tride vs.
> comp
> 
> David said
> > > Sorry bass and drums, but your role is basically straight rhythm.
> 
> to which Rob asked
> > Do you find that part of the drummer's role is also to assist with
> dynamic
> > contrast?  It seems that big band drummers act almost as substitute
> > conductors in "driving" the band, setting up the different sections, and
> > leading the p's and ff's
> 
> I'm going to disagree with David. A drummer playing straight rhythm
> without
> any dynamics or colouration makes for a boring rhythm section and a boring
> band.
> In New Orleans jazz, the master, Baby Dodds is doing anything but playing
> straight rhythm.He is varying his sound FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE BAND. He
> feeds each soloist with something different. He uses all the kit, snare,
> toms, rims, blocks cowbells and cymbals. His accents are where you would
> least expect them.
> 
> Tony Sbarbaro with the ODJB and Ray Bauduc with Bob Crosby also knew what
> it
> was about, as did George Wettling. Krupa as another example, on the
> Goodman
> Orchestra and small group recordings is doing far more than just keeping
> time. Check out his recordings with Condon at Town Hall on  Jazzology and
> see how he drives a Dixieland band.
> Yes Rob, the drummer's role is to assist with dynamics and to drive the
> band.I've recently heard some fine CDs with Hal Smith, who is doing just
> that in the old style  and doing it very well. He gets inside the music.
> Too
> many drummers today think that they can play traditional jazz with just
> the
> knowledge and technique of playing drums. The will sit for chorus after
> chorus on a big ride cymbal regardless of what is happening elsewhere.
> It's
> not that easy. It takes a thorough knowledge of the instrument and the
> music
> to do it well. It does not require a great technique, just an ability to
> swing and play within the idiom. In fact a drummer with a highly developed
> technique has to know when to turn it off when playing old style jazz.
> Dixieland cries out for press rolls, blocks, rims etc, yet even George
> Wettling, a master of the style discarded these aids, preferring to play
> ride on either hi hat or cymbals in later years. His playing lost a lot of
> its colour when compared to the wonderful trio sessions with Stacy &
> Freeman
> or the Wild Bill Commodore sides.
> Gene, however used press rolls right to the end.
> 
> John Petters
> www.traditional-jazz.com
> Amateur Radio Station G3YPZ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob McCallum" <rakmccallum at hotmail.com>
> To: "David W. Littlefield" <dwlit at cpcug.org>
> Cc: "djml" <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] stride vs. comp
> 
> 
> > Hello all,
> >
> .  Keeping the beat rests with the hi hat and ride
> > (and of course the string bass).  Is it the same while playing the
> dixieland
> > style?
> >
> > All the best,
> > Rob McCallum
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: David W. Littlefield <dwlit at cpcug.org>
> > To: <dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] stride vs. comp
> >
> >
> > > Whatever rhythm instrument one plays, one should do what's appropriate
> to
> > > the music genre, the basic style of the band, and what the others are
> > > playing. This requires knowing what the leader wants and constant
> > listening
> > > to the sound of the *whole* band. A relevant factor when playing in
> public
> > > is what has entertainment value to the particular audience; relevant
> also
> > > when making records.
> > >
> > > In OKOM, there's a basic hierarchy: Horns are at the top, piano, then
> > > banjo/guitar in the middle, bass below them, and drums at the bottom.
> > > Rhythm players have to understand that they are there to support the
> > horns,
> > > to provide a *floor* so the horns play better and the dancers can
> > > sure-footedly groove the roof. This is true whether the band play a
> 2-beat
> > > or 4-beat style.
> > >
> > > Piano is the prime fill maker, and constitutionally has the freedom to
> add
> > > some touches of syncopation, etc., at other times. But piano must be
> > > prepared to play straight rhythm, ie boom-chuck, or comp simply,
> > instantly.
> > > For example, the second he hears one or more horns playing syncops or
> > > riffs, he should boom-chuck, because square 4/4 will propel the
> syncops
> > > into the stratosphere; the other rhythm cats should do the same. The
> bass
> > > player may not like it, but 2-handed piano is part of the old music,
> and
> > > boom-chucking gives the rhythm a lot more "whack". Piano should try to
> > > sense whether the rhytmists want a little space to do fills. The other
> > > night guitar and I felt the bass want to fill the 7th-8th bars, so we
> let
> > > up and gave him the space, last half of tune just stopped at those
> > > measures; by then he knew we were giving him the floor, so he doubled
> his
> > > efforts; we did this for a couple of choruses, and it really lifted
> the
> > > whole performance. From an OKOM listener's perspective, the active
> > 2-fisted
> > > piano adds to the entertainment value.
> > >
> > > Banjo/guitar are adjuncts to the percussion. Chunk, chunk, chunk!
> Listen
> > > for when piano gives some space. The extent of their freedom depends
> on
> > > whether the bass and drums are perfoming their proper roles! They try
> to
> > > learn what support each horn soloist prefers. They should consider
> that
> a
> > > constant hard 4 rhythm needs to be relieved regularly or it comes to
> have
> > a
> > > pounding effect. So: some off-beats, held notes, some syncops,
> glisses,
> as
> > > a change-up. Chunk-a chunk-a chunk-a style generally sucks, except
> that
> in
> > > an out chorus it's one very useful changeup for enhancing the
> intensity
> of
> > > the climax. I played/subbed on banjo with a couple of no-piano bands
> where
> > > the leader wanted straight 4/4; that was ok, except that whenever I
> > > listened to both bands off the bandstand, I found the unrelieved 4/4
> to
> be
> > > colorless, boring, and give that pounding effect. So when I played
> with
> > > them, I put in a bit of relief. The drummer of one band used off-beats
> now
> > > and again, and standard fills; I usually played right along with him,
> and
> > > it was very effective, loads of fun to interact with him, and the
> > > hornpersons usually were delighted. But basically straight rhythm is
> > > required, and the main satisfaction for a string player must be to
> make
> > the
> > > band sound and feel better. Of course, the mindful leader will give
> > > stringplayer some solo space. String (especially banjo) fills and
> solos
> > > have decided entertainment value for the general public.
> > >
>  KISS. A
> > > few small changeups are cool, as is an *occasional* break, sometimes
> even
> > a
> > > solo--perhaps a couple per set. Your main creativity must be in
> supporting
> > > the rest of the band; of course, the drummer has more tools to work
> with,
> > > and that can have significant impact on the sound and feel of the
> band.
> > > Bass creativity has little basic entertainment value, can screw up the
> > band
> > > very easily.
> > >
> > > --Sheik
> > >
> > >
> > > At 08:57 AM 1/22/2003 -0600, Pat Cooke wrote:
> > > >      IMHO, stride is for solo piano....when you have a bass player,
> > leave
> > > >the bass notes for the bass to play.  I find a comping style much
> easier
> > to
> > > >play bass with.
> > > >      Also, a piano and a banjo(or guitar) in the same band is not a
> good
> > > >idea, unless they have played together long enough to know what
> chords
> > the
> > > >other will be using and when to make the changes.
> > > >      I've played with a number of groups where the piano and banjo
> are
> > > >playing different chords at the same time.....Maddening!
> > > >    Pat Cooke
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Charlie Hull" <Charlie at easysounds.com>
> > > >To: "Charlie Hooks" <charliehooks at earthlink.net>; "DJML"
> > > ><dixielandjazz at ml.islandnet.com>
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:51 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Dixielandjazz] Solos vs. Banjo Styles
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> IMHO banjo can be compared to piano in a band.  Some pianists can't
> let
> > go
> > > >> of striding or playing every beat even tho they can be set free by
> > letting
> > > >> the bass and drums carry the rhythm.  Ditto with banjoists -- many
> > insist
> > > >on
> > > >> playing a chord for every beat, while others -- epitomized by Bill
> > > >Dendle --
> > > >> 'comp' like a good pianist, doing off-beat sparks and tasty
> fillins.
> > > >> Depends on the band's makeup, too.  If you have both piano and
> banjo,
> > you
> > > >> don't want them both comping and filling at the same time.
> > > >>
> > > >> I agree whole-heartedly with Charlie Hooks.  A plink-plink-plink,
> > > >> chord-on-every-beat banjo or piano can really box in a soloist's
> > ability
> > > >to
> > > >> flow and use passing chords.  To me, it inhibits the imagination
> and
> > > >> creative juices.
> > > >>
> > > >> But we are each unique, thank the Diety.  Viva la difference!
> > > >>
> > > >> Charlie Hull
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
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> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> 
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