[Dixielandjazz] Chords Again. James P Johnson to Dizzy Gillespie

[Patrick Cooke]

Steve wrote:
>>>>probably I am missing something so you chord guys, help me out will you?
Otherwise I'll have to think either that JPJ was among the harmonic
grandfathers of bebop, or that Monk played Dixieland. ;-)<<<

   The Gm6, The C9(root omitted), and the Em7b5 are all fingered exactly the
same on a guitar.  They all contain the same notes.
    What you name a chord depends a lot on the chord before it and/or the
chord that it resolves to.  All 3 chords have a dominant sound.  There are a
number of dominant substitutions that will also sound good.
     The m7b5 designation is a later usage and it didn't appear in most fake
books until the latter part of the last century (1900's).  I had always
related the Gm6 and the C9, but it took a while to get used to the m7b5
designation.  Better get used to it, if you're going to be reading fake
books.
       Pat Cooke



----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Barbone" <barbonestreet@earthlink.net>
To: "Dixieland Jazz Mailing List" <dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 7:59 PM
Subject: [Dixielandjazz] Chords Again. James P Johnson to Dizzy Gillespie


> List mates:
>
> Discovered an interesting twist on the Gm6 chord with the E in the root,
> (first mentioned by John Farrell) that James P. Johnson wrote in the
> 12th bar of the chorus to "Charleston". circa 1924. The notes of that
> chord, per the original sheet music are:  E, G, Bb, D. Now, note the
> following quote from Dizzy Gillespie in 'Downbeat', May 1961. He was
> talking about Thelonious Monk and "modern chords".
>
> "I can remember when nobody except us played the chord progression Am7
> to D7, to Db. That was one of the chord progressions I showed Monk." And
> thern Dizzy continued:
>
> "But Monk was the first to use Em7 with a flatted fifth, or as some call
> it an E half-diminished. Monk just called it a Gm6 with an E in the
> base."
>
> What are the notes to an Em7b5?  Same as Gm6 with the E in the base.  E,
> G, Bb, D.
>
> Gm6 with E as the root?  Isn't that what James P called the Em7b5?  Well
> before Monk? And since JPJ was one of Monk's first heroes, it would
> follow that Monk picked up on it from him, no?
>
> Why didn't they call it Em7b5? On JPJ's part, perhaps because in
> Dixieland or Jazz at the time, there was a rule that you didn't flat
> fifths?  What was it Eddie Condon said: "We don't flat our fifths, we
> drink them?" ;-)
>
> If the notes to Em7b5 are the same as Gm6 with the E in the base; E, G,
> Bb, D, doesn't it follow that in "Charleston", 1924, JPJ was really
> flatting the 5th?
>
> I don't claim to be the chord maven, and probably I am missing something
> so you chord guys, help me out will you? Otherwise I'll have to think
> either that JPJ was among the harmonic grandfathers of bebop, or that
> Monk played Dixieland. ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
> PS. No matter what, it is kind of interesting that both Monk & James P
> Johnson described that  particular chord as a Gm6 with an E root, or E
> in the base.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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